From e2eiod at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 02:47:39 2006 From: e2eiod at gmail.com (Robert Pearson) Date: Fri Dec 1 02:47:41 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Enterprise Storage On a Shoestring Message-ID: Table of Contents 1) Enterprise Storage On a Shoestring, Pt. I 2) HPC =========================================== 1) Enterprise Storage On a Shoestring, Pt. I StorageMojo post entitled "Enterprise Storage On a Shoestring, Pt. I": <> Download and read the PDF at: "FAB: enterprise storage systems on a shoestring (pdf)" <> "Google has *almost* created enterprise-class storage from commodities. Microsoft has Boxwood. Amazon has, but they aren't telling. Now HP has people saying "we can build enterprise class storage from commodity components." And they've done it. They said it, and a lot more, in this paper, "FAB: enterprise storage systems on a shoestring (pdf)", by Svend Fr?lund, Arif Merchant, Yasushi Saito, Susan Spence and Alistair Veitch." This approach should scale well both vertically and horizontally. 2) HPC On 11/28/06, Robert Pearson wrote: > On 11/28/06, Borries Demeler wrote: > When I went to SC'06 I saw one vendor (Microway) who was selling a > Lustre rack based on SATA drives with a switched infiniband interconnect. > I believe it was a 8 TB unit, using Lustre as the parallel file system. > They were maxing out the infiniband connection during reads and writes. Microway reports some impressive bandwidth numbers at: <> using--- Qlogic InfiniPath HTX Adapter Features and Specifications: * World's best cluster interconnect performance <> o Lowest MPI latency (1.29?s with HTX, 1.67 for PCI Express) o 88 byte n? message size (streaming) o 1884 MB/s bi-directional peak bandwidth (streaming) o TCP/IP bandwidth of 583 MB/s > Think of Lustre as software RAID for networked drives. I talked to the > Lustre folks and they told me they are working on a RAID-5 like redundancy > layer. Right now what we have is just a little better than RAID-0, i.e., > it has all the speedup, the bundling of disks into a single storage unit, but > then it also has a one-up on software RAID-0: If one drive fails only the > part that is stored on this drive is inaccessible, which in the case of > a smaller file may be the entire file. In the case of software or hardware > RAID-0, if one drive fails, the entire system is hosed. Here, you can continue > to run, although without access of the data stored on the bad drive, ditto > for one of the nodes going down. The trend for HPC may be away from RAID. The rebuild time kills you. My guess is they will go to the "shelf" approach and write to multiple locations for redundancy. The process to do this seems to still be undecided. > In the future, you will be able to simply plug in a new drive and the > system rebuilds automatically. Lustre is open source and has commercial > support. I expect "rebuilding" to become extinct. It takes too long. If you have n+1 locations (minimum of 2) and you lose one because you lose a drive, the Storage system will automatically create a new copy at a new location. Disks are cheap. From kell at spoonix.com Fri Dec 1 03:16:05 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Fri Dec 1 03:16:14 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] [Fwd: San Antonio Open Source Research] In-Reply-To: <456F3C51.3010302@gmail.com> References: <45631C11.8010805@gmail.com> <77be04730611210749x74b51459v415602866c5600aa@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730611290655s27958e8fva43ed966874494e1@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730611300840k6bb1bd01ne5b8f560a63fb4c5@mail.gmail.com> <456F3C51.3010302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061201091605.GA16408@spoonix.com> On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 02:17:21PM -0600, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > Justizin wrote: > > I hate working for people, and I am not in San Antonio, I am just a > > ten-plus year member of SATLUG. I'd rather talk to you guys than > > SVLUG, BALUG, or any of the other various groups that somehow are > > better located but less active. > > Really? I thought SATLUG was formed in 1998. Its hard to be a > "ten-plus year member" of an organization that is 8-9 years old. The articles of incorp weren't filed until then, but there was a SATLUG for at least a year prior to that. Maybe 2, but I'm fuzzy on the dates. First meeting, IIRC, was at Hill's and Dale's and adjourned to the Pizza Hut down the road when folks started getting peckish. -- K. Spoon From kell at spoonix.com Fri Dec 1 03:54:00 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Fri Dec 1 03:54:08 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: <0283E602-B64A-4A3F-8F50-3B2897C324A3@bleepsoft.com> References: <0283E602-B64A-4A3F-8F50-3B2897C324A3@bleepsoft.com> Message-ID: <20061201095359.GA16528@spoonix.com> On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 04:12:22PM -0600, R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > I showed you mine, now show me yours. Please tell me you all have > some WTFs, else I've have to go try to drown myself in a pint of > Guinness :) That's always a good idea besides the point. But here goes. This is one that was entitled: "Metric Time". Comments are reproduced in their entirety and as close to verbatim as I can recall. $start_time = time(); [... do some highly reckless stuff here ...] $end_time = time(); $elapsed_time = $end_time - $start_time; #caculate minutes $minutes = $elapsed_time / 100; if( $minutes > 60 ) { $minutes -= 40; } Of course.... it was in production. My only comment upon discovery was "That's the sort of math skills you don't see too often outside of NASA's Mars exploration labs." ;) -- K. Spoon From mkr777 at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 06:31:53 2006 From: mkr777 at gmail.com (M K Ramadoss) Date: Fri Dec 1 06:31:56 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] PDF to M/S Word Conversion In-Reply-To: <456F7CB3.3090403@cox-internet.com> References: <455DD398.3050303@gmail.com> <456F7CB3.3090403@cox-internet.com> Message-ID: I went and looked up some reviews of the two programs and it appears that ABBYY may be a little bit better in that it handles formatting better. Only by using the trial version personally one can determine which will be a better fit for the kind of work one has on hand. By the way, I have not used either of them. However, I was impressed by the ABBYY's Finereader OCR. My 0.02. mkr On 11/30/06, Dennis Myhand wrote: > > M K Ramadoss wrote: > > You should look into ABBYY Transformer program which converts pdf files > to > > word and several other formats. You may be able to download a try and > buy > > trial version and try the program to see if it meets the needs. The > program > > is inexpensive; one time cost of $99.00. > > > > Keep all of us posted of the progress in the matter. > > > > mkr > > > > On 11/17/06, Samuel Leon wrote: > >> > >> Looking for some info here. My girlfriend has a job helping her > college > >> professor on the side. I don't have all the details but from what I > >> gather her professor is trying to get a report of his published but the > >> publisher wants the report in ms word format and it is currently in pdf > >> format. > >> > >> There are several 100+ page reports that my girlfriend is having to > >> manually copy and paste from Adobe into Word. Problem is that when > >> pasted into Word the format comes out all screwy and some letters and > >> words appear as symbols. So to be accurate she is pasting 1 paragraph > >> at a time and then going back and proof reading it to make sure the > >> formating is right and that all the words are there. Very time > >> consuming as you can imagine. > >> > >> I know there has to be a program out there can properly convert all > >> this, so whats it called??? :-D > >> > >> > >> > >> Sam > >> -- > >> _______________________________________________ > >> SATLUG mailing list > >> SATLUG@satlug.org > >> http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > >> Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > >> > PDF2Word converter $39.95 > > http://www.verypdf.com/pdf2word/index.html > > -- > Three o'clock in the afternoon is always just a little too late or a > little too early for anything you want to do. -- Jean-Paul Sartre > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Fri Dec 1 06:39:21 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Fri Dec 1 06:39:36 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] PDF to M/S Word Conversion In-Reply-To: References: <455DD398.3050303@gmail.com> <456F7CB3.3090403@cox-internet.com> Message-ID: <45702279.4050804@w5omr.shacknet.nu> M K Ramadoss wrote: It's funny how the mind works, when we get older... I've seen the name "M K Ramadoss" around here a while.. and all the time thought "man, that name looks familiar"... This morning it hit me. I knew that name, when I first got into BBS's (shortly after I got into computers, back in the 8088 and 4.77MHz XT days) somewhere in the mid 80's. Good to see a familiar face still hanging around town. -- Regards, -Geoff (Jeff) (ex-sysop Electronic Avenue BBS) From robertc3 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 1 07:31:29 2006 From: robertc3 at hotmail.com (robert) Date: Fri Dec 1 07:31:36 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] PDF to M/S Word Conversion References: <455DD398.3050303@gmail.com><456F7CB3.3090403@cox-internet.com> Message-ID: "M K Ramadoss" wrote: >I went and looked up some reviews of the two programs and it appears that > ABBYY may be a little bit better in that it handles formatting better. > Only > by using the trial version personally one can determine which will be a > better fit for the kind of work one has on hand. By the way, I have not > used > either of them. However, I was impressed by the ABBYY's Finereader OCR. My > 0.02. > > mkr We use ABBYY Finereader OCR here at work. It has very few problems recognizing scanned text (or PDF's). It even recognizes foreign languages. I recommend it for all of your OCR needs. Robert From leon36 at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 08:59:51 2006 From: leon36 at gmail.com (Samuel Leon) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:00:00 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] PDF to M/S Word Conversion In-Reply-To: References: <455DD398.3050303@gmail.com><456F7CB3.3090403@cox-internet.com> Message-ID: <45704367.9000404@gmail.com> robert wrote: > "M K Ramadoss" wrote: >> I went and looked up some reviews of the two programs and it appears >> that >> ABBYY may be a little bit better in that it handles formatting >> better. Only >> by using the trial version personally one can determine which will be a >> better fit for the kind of work one has on hand. By the way, I have >> not used >> either of them. However, I was impressed by the ABBYY's Finereader >> OCR. My >> 0.02. >> >> mkr > > We use ABBYY Finereader OCR here at work. It has very few problems > recognizing scanned text (or PDF's). It even recognizes foreign > languages. I recommend it for all of your OCR needs. > > Robert > Yall are great! I will look into those programs! Sam From gwillden at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 09:08:18 2006 From: gwillden at gmail.com (Greg Willden) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:08:22 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] C++/Direct Show Dev Needed....ASAP In-Reply-To: <77be04730611300838m60e8bb0bx1dddf1cd3e8c658a@mail.gmail.com> References: <456EF5A5.1000904@nvision2020.com> <77be04730611300838m60e8bb0bx1dddf1cd3e8c658a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <345e55a50612010708m3fd37b4ay5c2d85ca5b836b45@mail.gmail.com> It does not seem much related to Linux. On 11/30/06, Justizin wrote: > I'm of the distinct opinion that this is offensively off-topic. ;) > > On 11/30/06, Dean McCall wrote: > > C++ Direct Show Developers > > > > Must posses 5 years or more Direct Show experience with an Open GL > > background, Video background is a plus but not required Salary $45000 > > to $150,000 US. Must we able to work in USA or be able to be Sponsored. > > Looking for someone in the San Marcos area but willing to take > > telecommuters on a case by case basis. This is a full time position. > > > > If interested please respond of list... > > > > Thanks > > Dean > > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > SATLUG mailing list > > SATLUG@satlug.org > > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > > > > > -- > Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect > ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter > http://www.siggraph.org/ > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- To know recursion, you must first know recursion. From dean.mccall at nvision2020.com Fri Dec 1 09:21:05 2006 From: dean.mccall at nvision2020.com (Dean McCall) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:21:06 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sorry for the bad post! In-Reply-To: <345e55a50612010708m3fd37b4ay5c2d85ca5b836b45@mail.gmail.com> References: <456EF5A5.1000904@nvision2020.com> <77be04730611300838m60e8bb0bx1dddf1cd3e8c658a@mail.gmail.com> <345e55a50612010708m3fd37b4ay5c2d85ca5b836b45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45704861.6030400@nvision2020.com> Sorry when I post jobs I push them to a couple lists/groups...when I am super busy like when this one was passed to me I just forwarded on thought without really using the whole brain. My apologizes for a bad post! In repentance I will forward on an invite I got to what seems like a great up coming festival. Since we went off on a game binge the other day I figure it's probably more appropriate...compliments of my friends at Make;) 2006 Blip Festival http://www.blipfestival.org/ About Blip Festival 2006 *THE TANK* and *8BITPEOPLES* are pleased to present the Blip Festival, a four-day celebration of over 30 international artists exploring the untapped potential of low-bit videogame consoles and home computers used as creative tools. Familiar devices are pushed in new directions with startling results ? Nintendo Entertainment Systems and Game Boys roaring with futuristic floor-stomping rhythms and fist-waving melody, art-damaged Sega hardware generating fluctuating and abstracted video patterns ? and that's only the beginning. An exploration of the chiptune idiom and its close relatives, the Blip Festival is the biggest and most comprehensive event in the history of the form, and will include daily workshops, art installations, and nightly music performances boasting an international roster larger and more far-reaching than any previous event of its kind. Small sounds at large scales pushed to the limit at high volumes ? the Blip Festival is an unprecedented event that is not to be missed. Thanks Dean Greg Willden wrote: > It does not seem much related to Linux. > > > On 11/30/06, Justizin wrote: >> I'm of the distinct opinion that this is offensively off-topic. ;) >> >> On 11/30/06, Dean McCall wrote: >> > C++ Direct Show Developers >> > >> > Must posses 5 years or more Direct Show experience with an Open GL >> > background, Video background is a plus but not required Salary $45000 >> > to $150,000 US. Must we able to work in USA or be able to be >> Sponsored. >> > Looking for someone in the San Marcos area but willing to take >> > telecommuters on a case by case basis. This is a full time position. >> > >> > If interested please respond of list... >> > >> > Thanks >> > Dean >> > >> > >> > -- >> > _______________________________________________ >> > SATLUG mailing list >> > SATLUG@satlug.org >> > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe >> > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) >> > >> >> >> -- >> Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect >> ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter >> http://www.siggraph.org/ >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> SATLUG mailing list >> SATLUG@satlug.org >> http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe >> Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) >> > > From justizin at siggraph.org Fri Dec 1 09:21:17 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:21:26 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] RE: kerberos In-Reply-To: <456F6456.7010908@shlrm.org> References: <20061129052417.6480E43E1AB@satlug.org> <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> <1164916009.21228.34.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <456F3CBF.1060001@gmail.com> <456F6456.7010908@shlrm.org> Message-ID: <77be04730612010721u66d1763fvf194b8a9886e178@mail.gmail.com> On 11/30/06, David Kowis wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > Bruce Dubbs wrote: > > John Pappas wrote: > > > >> Is LDAP over SSL a solution to handle the transport security problem? > > The problem is not transport security, it's the size of the trust network. > > I believe that is one option. Another is SASL -- or a combination. > > > > -- Bruce > > I've done LDAP over a tls certificate based system. it works well enough > for pam_ldap and nss_ldap. I use a host based certificate, so each host > has it's own cert for establishing the TLS stuff. I looked into ldap + > kerberos, but it was too much of a PITA for me and my lonesome. > I can see how properly encrypted LDAP communications are rather secure, but consider that I will more or less need to hand out access to a database of a half million plus people to innumerate application developers at all levels of an international organization. Right now, Plone, which is going to be our core, encrypts passwords in such a way that I can reset them, but not read them. If you lose your password, much like with Yahoo or any other online service, you have to have a confirmation e-mail sent. The ACM has very stringent policies on privacy, security, etc.. We are also a huge community, so I'm trying to serve both. I am going to provide Chapters, SIGs, etc.. with a ton of tools to build web presences using Plone, but some of them will want to use Rails or PHP or CFM or whatever, and that's fine. I want them to be able to use a simple, accessible means of determining if a given id is a non-paying "web account", an ACM Member, a SIG Member, and/or a member of one or more Chapters. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From kell at spoonix.com Fri Dec 1 09:40:26 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:40:35 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] RE: kerberos In-Reply-To: <77be04730612010721u66d1763fvf194b8a9886e178@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061129052417.6480E43E1AB@satlug.org> <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> <1164916009.21228.34.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <456F3CBF.1060001@gmail.com> <456F6456.7010908@shlrm.org> <77be04730612010721u66d1763fvf194b8a9886e178@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061201154025.GA19102@spoonix.com> On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 09:21:17AM -0600, Justizin wrote: > I can see how properly encrypted LDAP communications are rather > secure, but consider that I will more or less need to hand out access > to a database of a half million plus people to innumerate application > developers at all levels of an international organization. Right now, > Plone, which is going to be our core, encrypts passwords in such a way > that I can reset them, but not read them. If you lose your password, > much like with Yahoo or any other online service, you have to have a > confirmation e-mail sent. How does an md5 hash not satisfy this requirement? You don't have to store passwords in LDAP in the clear... md5 and crypt are supported out of the box. If the concern is untrusted applications recording/intercepting the passwords as the user types them in, then krb5 is probably your only hope. -- K. Spoon From ASexton956 at Worldsavings.com Fri Dec 1 09:43:35 2006 From: ASexton956 at Worldsavings.com (Sexton, Art, ISD) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:45:09 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: <20061201095359.GA16528@spoonix.com> Message-ID: My contribution today is in OS390 assembler...but I will translate for those of you who do not speak that language. I uncovered this one while debugging Y2k changes and kept it as...well...a WTF. Now keep in mind this one did not bite us until Dec 31, 2000. ******************************************************************** * WE ARE ADDING ONE TO THE CICS MONTH AND COMPARING THIS TO THE * * SETTLE MONTH TO DETERMINE IF TRAN SHOULD USE THIS YEAR OR PREV * * YEAR FOR YEAR TO BE PUT ON LOG RECORD * ******************************************************************** MVXTOE28 EQU * REASON: YEAR END PROCESSING MVC WORKFLD1,=C'0000000000000000' MVC WORKFLD1+14(2),CICSDTMM PACK WORKFLD1,WORKFLD1 OI WORKFLD1+15,X'0F' AP WORKFLD1,=P'1' UNPK CICSDTMM,WORKFLD1+14(2) OI CICSDTMM+1,X'F0' CLC EMASMON,CICSDTMM BH MVXTOE29 B MVXTOE30 MVXTOE29 EQU * REASON: USE PREV YEAR EXEC CICS ASKTIME ABSTIME(CICSTIME) EXEC CICS FORMATTIME ABSTIME(CICSTIME) MMDDYY(CICSDATE) MVC EMASYR,CICSDTYY CLC EMASYR,=C'00' IS IT 2000 TRAN ? BE MVXTOE28 (yep, you read that right, as Dec 2000 rolls to Jan 2001, we will go into a hard loop on trascations that cross over and will, and did, bring down the CICS region) ***************************************************************************** If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, please notify the sender immediately. The contents of this e-mail do not amend any existing disclosures or agreements unless expressly stated. ***************************************************************************** From dean.mccall at nvision2020.com Fri Dec 1 09:54:15 2006 From: dean.mccall at nvision2020.com (Dean McCall) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:54:19 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sun's Project Black Box Message-ID: <45705027.6080901@nvision2020.com> Has anyone else seen Sun's project black box project? Quite an interesting idea on modular data centers design...good fodder for a Friday... A Novel Datacenter Concept Project Blackbox packages compute, storage, and network infrastructure capabilities into scalable, modular units outfitted with state-of-the-art cooling, monitoring, and power distribution systems. Customers will be able to order a variety of standard and custom configurations of systems, storage, networking, and software. Housed in a standard 20-foot shipping container for maximum flexibility, Project Blackbox will be easily transported using common shipping methods. Simple hookups for water, AC power, and networking will enable customers to quickly deploy Project Blackbox upon delivery. Inside Project Blackbox The Project Blackbox prototype is a computing powerhouse capable of hosting a configuration that would place it among the top 200 fastest supercomputers globally. The current prototype could support the following capacities: * A single Project Blackbox could accommodate 250 Sun Fire T1000 servers with the CoolThreads technology with 2000 cores and 8000 simultaneous threads. * A single Project Blackbox could accommodate 250 x64-based servers with 1000 cores. * A single Project Blackbox could provide as much as 1.5 petabytes of disk storage or 2 petabytes of energy-efficient tape storage. * A single Project Blackbox could provide 7 terabytes of memory. * A single Project Blackbox could handle up to 10,000 simultaneous desktop users. * A single Project Blackbox currently has sufficient power and cooling to support 200 kilowatts of rackmounted equipment. https://photos.sun.com/page/1182 Dean From pixelnate at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 09:52:00 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (pixelnate) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:54:20 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sorry for the bad post! In-Reply-To: <45704861.6030400@nvision2020.com> References: <456EF5A5.1000904@nvision2020.com> <77be04730611300838m60e8bb0bx1dddf1cd3e8c658a@mail.gmail.com> <345e55a50612010708m3fd37b4ay5c2d85ca5b836b45@mail.gmail.com> <45704861.6030400@nvision2020.com> Message-ID: <45704FA0.2090204@gmail.com> Dean McCall wrote: > > 2006 Blip Festival > http://www.blipfestival.org/ OK, this feeds directly into the Arts discussion we had yesterday, and I gotta say nothing this cool/hip would ever happen anywhere near San Antonio. We do have SXSW in Austin, but this would be a seriously cool event to see. ~Nate From justizin at siggraph.org Fri Dec 1 09:55:34 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:55:39 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] RE: kerberos In-Reply-To: <20061201154025.GA19102@spoonix.com> References: <20061129052417.6480E43E1AB@satlug.org> <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> <1164916009.21228.34.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <456F3CBF.1060001@gmail.com> <456F6456.7010908@shlrm.org> <77be04730612010721u66d1763fvf194b8a9886e178@mail.gmail.com> <20061201154025.GA19102@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612010755l4680c9acl2b866124ef43cca4@mail.gmail.com> On 12/1/06, K. Spoon wrote: > On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 09:21:17AM -0600, Justizin wrote: > > I can see how properly encrypted LDAP communications are rather > > secure, but consider that I will more or less need to hand out access > > to a database of a half million plus people to innumerate application > > developers at all levels of an international organization. Right now, > > Plone, which is going to be our core, encrypts passwords in such a way > > that I can reset them, but not read them. If you lose your password, > > much like with Yahoo or any other online service, you have to have a > > confirmation e-mail sent. > > How does an md5 hash not satisfy this requirement? You don't have to > store passwords in LDAP in the clear... md5 and crypt are supported out > of the box. Well, this means I have to hand out a private key to a thousand application developers, right? :/ > If the concern is untrusted applications recording/intercepting the passwords > as the user types them in, then krb5 is probably your only hope. > Well, that is a concern, but not a huge one - we are more concerned about people not writing secure code or making mistakes than being malicious. Also, I don't think I can get krb all the way to the browser. :/ -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From pixelnate at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 09:58:05 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (pixelnate) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:00:20 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sun's Project Black Box In-Reply-To: <45705027.6080901@nvision2020.com> References: <45705027.6080901@nvision2020.com> Message-ID: <4570510D.40205@gmail.com> Dean McCall wrote: > > * A single Project Blackbox could accommodate 250 Sun Fire T1000 > servers with the CoolThreads technology > with 2000 cores > and 8000 simultaneous threads. > * A single Project Blackbox could accommodate 250 x64-based servers > with 1000 cores. > * A single Project Blackbox could provide as much as 1.5 petabytes > of disk storage or 2 petabytes of energy-efficient tape storage. > * A single Project Blackbox could provide 7 terabytes of memory. > * A single Project Blackbox could handle up to 10,000 simultaneous > desktop users. > * A single Project Blackbox currently has sufficient power and > cooling to support 200 kilowatts of rackmounted equipment. Wow, you could have a CounterStrike:Source server with 10000+ players on the same map! Kewl. ~Nate From mkr777 at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 10:01:52 2006 From: mkr777 at gmail.com (M K Ramadoss) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:01:55 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] PDF to M/S Word Conversion In-Reply-To: <45702279.4050804@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <455DD398.3050303@gmail.com> <456F7CB3.3090403@cox-internet.com> <45702279.4050804@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: Yes, Jeff, I am the same person. Glad you recognized me, perhaps due to my rather uncommon name in this part of the world! I grew up with computer revolution and my first PC was a 8088 & 4.77 MHZ XT. Bought my first PC, Osborne Transportable when Osborne visited San Antonio in 1980 and I still have the computer autographed by him. Hope you are doing well and send me a e-mail off the list if I can be of any help. M K Ramadoss San Antonio TX On 12/1/06, Geoff wrote: > > M K Ramadoss wrote: > > It's funny how the mind works, when we get older... > > I've seen the name "M K Ramadoss" around here a while.. and all the time > thought "man, that name looks familiar"... > > This morning it hit me. I knew that name, when I first got into BBS's > (shortly after I got into computers, back in the 8088 and 4.77MHz XT > days) somewhere in the mid 80's. > > Good to see a familiar face still hanging around town. > > -- > Regards, > -Geoff (Jeff) > (ex-sysop Electronic Avenue BBS) > > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > From justizin at siggraph.org Fri Dec 1 10:02:10 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:02:16 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sorry for the bad post! In-Reply-To: <45704861.6030400@nvision2020.com> References: <456EF5A5.1000904@nvision2020.com> <77be04730611300838m60e8bb0bx1dddf1cd3e8c658a@mail.gmail.com> <345e55a50612010708m3fd37b4ay5c2d85ca5b836b45@mail.gmail.com> <45704861.6030400@nvision2020.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612010802i43ac1828w2045168cce4ba7d1@mail.gmail.com> On 12/1/06, Dean McCall wrote: > Sorry when I post jobs I push them to a couple lists/groups...when I am > super busy like when this one was passed to me I just forwarded on > thought without really using the whole brain. My apologizes for a bad post! It's really OK, I suppose it was sort of depressing after making a comment of having been offered over $100k several times in the past year, but never in south texas, being reminded also that periodically there *are* very high paying jobs in south texas doing very nasty things like working with DirectShow. It's a societal barrier that makes me very sad to think of. :( It's days like these that make me hate my grandfather for having moved out of Silicon Valley in the 70s. What an idiot. Thanks for ducking out taxes to live in a state with less educational resources, oh provider of DNA. Yee Haw. > In repentance I will forward on an invite I got to what seems like a > great up coming festival. Since we went off on a game binge the other > day I figure it's probably more appropriate...compliments of my friends > at Make;) Neato, I wonder why there is no affiliation with ACM SIGGRAPH. Our Digital Arts Committee is among the first groups that would love to hear about something like this. I'll forward it on. ;) > 2006 Blip Festival > http://www.blipfestival.org/ > About Blip Festival 2006 > *THE TANK* and *8BITPEOPLES* are pleased to present the Blip Festival, a > four-day celebration of over 30 international artists exploring the > untapped potential of low-bit videogame consoles and home computers used > as creative tools. Familiar devices are pushed in new directions with > startling results ? Nintendo Entertainment Systems and Game Boys roaring > with futuristic floor-stomping rhythms and fist-waving melody, > art-damaged Sega hardware generating fluctuating and abstracted video > patterns ? and that's only the beginning. An exploration of the chiptune > idiom and its close relatives, the Blip Festival is the biggest and most > comprehensive event in the history of the form, and will include daily > workshops, art installations, and nightly music performances boasting an > international roster larger and more far-reaching than any previous > event of its kind. Small sounds at large scales pushed to the limit at > high volumes ? the Blip Festival is an unprecedented event that is not > to be missed. > > Thanks > Dean > > > Greg Willden wrote: > > It does not seem much related to Linux. > > > > > > On 11/30/06, Justizin wrote: > >> I'm of the distinct opinion that this is offensively off-topic. ;) > >> > >> On 11/30/06, Dean McCall wrote: > >> > C++ Direct Show Developers > >> > > >> > Must posses 5 years or more Direct Show experience with an Open GL > >> > background, Video background is a plus but not required Salary $45000 > >> > to $150,000 US. Must we able to work in USA or be able to be > >> Sponsored. > >> > Looking for someone in the San Marcos area but willing to take > >> > telecommuters on a case by case basis. This is a full time position. > >> > > >> > If interested please respond of list... > >> > > >> > Thanks > >> > Dean > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > SATLUG mailing list > >> > SATLUG@satlug.org > >> > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > >> > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect > >> ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter > >> http://www.siggraph.org/ > >> -- > >> _______________________________________________ > >> SATLUG mailing list > >> SATLUG@satlug.org > >> http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > >> Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > >> > > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From riugakusei at netscape.net Fri Dec 1 10:02:21 2006 From: riugakusei at netscape.net (riugakusei@netscape.net) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:02:28 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] help with wireless card Atheros ARG5005 rev 01 In-Reply-To: <456F3DB9.9000205@gmail.com> References: <8C8E26F6F6F12F2-BE0-DF3C@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> <46593AE2-B291-4CC6-8273-42459DF455A6@bleepsoft.com> <456F3DB9.9000205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C8E379381B8241-860-A869@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> i am running FC6 with an Atheros AR5005g NIC rev 1 card, i installed madwifi and loaded ath_pci module and my card des get recognized, i can see the wirless networkavalable but i won't pick up no ip address via dhcp,i get the following form dmesg|grep ath: #dmesg|grep ath: /* i have no ide what this output means */ ath_hal: no version for"struct_module" foundkernel tainted ath_hal: module license 'propietary ' taints kernel ath_hal: 0.9.18 (AR5210, AR5211,RF5111,RF5112,RF2413,RF5413) ath_rate_sample: 1.2 (0.9.13) ath_pci: 0.9.4.5(0.9.3) device-mapper: multippath : version 1.0.4 loaded from dmesg|grep wifi0: wifi0: 11g rates: 1Mdps 2mps 5.5 mps 48 mps 54mps / *there were several lines because they had the same ouput */ wifi): H/W encriion supported: WEP AES AES_CCM TKIP wifi0: use hw que 1 for WME_ACBE traffffic wif0:Atheros 5212: mem= 0xc300000, irq=2333 from lsmod|grep ath: dm_multipath 22601 0 d_mod 61529 2 dm_mirror,dm_multpath ath_pci 91940 0 ath_rate_sample 17536 1 ath_pci wlan 185948 4 4 wlan_scan_sta,ath_pci,ath_rate_sample ath_hal 195152 3 ath_pci,ath_rate_sample hope that info can help you figure my problem., i just don't want to use Windows . thanks for your patience Vega -----Original Message----- From: bruce.dubbs@gmail.com To: satlug@satlug.org Sent: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 2:23 PMe Subject: Re: [SATLUG] error while executing make R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > On Nov 30, 2006, at 2:19 AM, riugakusei@netscape.net wrote: > >> i havea acer aspire 9300 laptop i did a fresh install of f c 6, al >> i got to do is complile the acer_acpi module and enable the wireless >> in order for it to work. y problem ste following. >> everytime i do make it gives me a lot of errors, any idea how to get >> around this? my wireless card is an Atheros AR5005G rev 01, i loaaded >> ath_pci and it gets rcognized... but still no wirlesss...any help? >> Medar > > Error messages! We need error messages! The above *is* an error message. It certainly is not coherent. -- Bruce -- _______________________________________________ SATLUG mailing list SATLUG@satlug.org http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe Powered by Rackspace (0www.rackspace.com) ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. From leon36 at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 10:37:00 2006 From: leon36 at gmail.com (Samuel Leon) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:37:10 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] help with wireless card Atheros ARG5005 rev 01 In-Reply-To: <8C8E379381B8241-860-A869@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C8E26F6F6F12F2-BE0-DF3C@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> <46593AE2-B291-4CC6-8273-42459DF455A6@bleepsoft.com> <456F3DB9.9000205@gmail.com> <8C8E379381B8241-860-A869@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <45705A2C.40400@gmail.com> riugakusei@netscape.net wrote: > i am running FC6 with an Atheros AR5005g NIC rev 1 card, i installed madwifi and loaded ath_pci module and my card des get recognized, i can see the wirless networkavalable but i won't pick up no ip address via dhcp,i get the following form dmesg|grep ath: > > > Are you trying to connect through command line? If so you need to issue a command to your dhcp client. Something like: From http://madwifi.org/wiki/UserDocs/FirstTimeHowTo ifconfig ath0 up ifconfig essid "essidname" then dhcpcd ath0 or dhcpbd ath0 From twistedpickles at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 10:41:00 2006 From: twistedpickles at gmail.com (twistedpickles) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:41:04 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] help with wireless card Atheros ARG5005 rev 01 In-Reply-To: <8C8E379381B8241-860-A869@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C8E26F6F6F12F2-BE0-DF3C@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> <46593AE2-B291-4CC6-8273-42459DF455A6@bleepsoft.com> <456F3DB9.9000205@gmail.com> <8C8E379381B8241-860-A869@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On my laptop running FC5 w/ an intel card I need to run dhclient -r and then dhclient when connecting between access points to release and renew the IP. -twistedpickles message sent from mobile handset On 12/1/06, riugakusei@netscape.net wrote: > i am running FC6 with an Atheros AR5005g NIC rev 1 card, i installed > madwifi and loaded ath_pci module and my card des get recognized, i can see > the wirless networkavalable but i won't pick up no ip address via dhcp,i get > the following form dmesg|grep ath: > > #dmesg|grep ath: /* i have no ide what this output means */ > ath_hal: no version for"struct_module" foundkernel tainted > ath_hal: module license 'propietary ' taints kernel > ath_hal: 0.9.18 (AR5210, AR5211,RF5111,RF5112,RF2413,RF5413) > ath_rate_sample: 1.2 (0.9.13) > ath_pci: 0.9.4.5(0.9.3) > device-mapper: multippath : version 1.0.4 loaded > > from dmesg|grep wifi0: > wifi0: 11g rates: 1Mdps 2mps 5.5 mps 48 mps 54mps / *there were several > lines because they had the same ouput */ > wifi): H/W encriion supported: WEP AES AES_CCM TKIP > wifi0: use hw que 1 for WME_ACBE traffffic > wif0:Atheros 5212: mem= 0xc300000, irq=2333 > > from lsmod|grep ath: > dm_multipath 22601 0 > d_mod 61529 2 dm_mirror,dm_multpath > ath_pci 91940 0 > ath_rate_sample 17536 1 ath_pci > wlan 185948 4 4 wlan_scan_sta,ath_pci,ath_rate_sample > ath_hal 195152 3 ath_pci,ath_rate_sample > > hope that info can help you figure my problem., i just don't want to use > Windows . thanks for your patience > Vega > > -----Original Message----- > From: bruce.dubbs@gmail.com > To: satlug@satlug.org > Sent: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 2:23 PMe > Subject: Re: [SATLUG] error while executing make > > R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > > > On Nov 30, 2006, at 2:19 AM, riugakusei@netscape.net wrote: > > > >> i havea acer aspire 9300 laptop i did a fresh install of f c 6, al > >> i got to do is complile the acer_acpi module and enable the wireless > >> in order for it to work. y problem ste following. > >> everytime i do make it gives me a lot of errors, any idea how to get > >> around this? my wireless card is an Atheros AR5005G rev 01, i loaaded > >> ath_pci and it gets rcognized... but still no wirlesss...any help? > >> Medar > > > > Error messages! We need error messages! > > The above *is* an error message. It certainly is not coherent. > > -- Bruce > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (0www.rackspace.com) > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading > spam and email virus protection. > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- ::twistedPickles:: : From kell at spoonix.com Fri Dec 1 10:48:28 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:48:36 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] RE: kerberos In-Reply-To: <77be04730612010755l4680c9acl2b866124ef43cca4@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061129052417.6480E43E1AB@satlug.org> <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> <1164916009.21228.34.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <456F3CBF.1060001@gmail.com> <456F6456.7010908@shlrm.org> <77be04730612010721u66d1763fvf194b8a9886e178@mail.gmail.com> <20061201154025.GA19102@spoonix.com> <77be04730612010755l4680c9acl2b866124ef43cca4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061201164828.GA19319@spoonix.com> On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 09:55:34AM -0600, Justizin wrote: > On 12/1/06, K. Spoon wrote: > >How does an md5 hash not satisfy this requirement? You don't have to > >store passwords in LDAP in the clear... md5 and crypt are supported out > >of the box. > > Well, this means I have to hand out a private key to a thousand > application developers, right? :/ What? No. http://userpages.umbc.edu/~mabzug1/cs/md5/md5.html The basic gist is that you take a string, run it through the md5 algorithm, and store the hash that's created somewhere... like, the /etc/passwd file or say, an LDAP server. Only the hash is saved... password is dropped after the hash is created. Whenever a user wants to authenticate, the application that they type their password into computes another md5 hash which is then sent back to the authentication server for it to compare against what's stored using some mathemagical formula I won't even pretend to understand. If the 2 hashes match up, the server sends back a thumbs up and the application awards authentication to the user... if not, try again, Beavis. No common cert is needed (because the md5 algorithm is what's shared), and the only thing sent over the wire is the hash, not the password itself. This is why everything from login to apache uses it, and because there's no (easy) way to "decrypt" the password from the hash it's why so many authentication systems require the admin to reset instead of resend passwords. Also.. I happen to know for a fact that Plone in 2003 was indeed capable of handling not only authentication via LDAP, but could even speak md5. In addition, we used posixGroups to establish user authorization to various parts of the site. -- K. Spoon From j at jvpappas.net Fri Dec 1 11:24:29 2006 From: j at jvpappas.net (John Pappas) Date: Fri Dec 1 11:28:21 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] help with wireless card Atheros ARG5005 rev 01 In-Reply-To: <8C8E379381B8241-860-A869@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C8E26F6F6F12F2-BE0-DF3C@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> <46593AE2-B291-4CC6-8273-42459DF455A6@bleepsoft.com> <456F3DB9.9000205@gmail.com> <8C8E379381B8241-860-A869@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1164993870.21228.69.camel@spook.abacussg.com> On Fri, 2006-12-01 at 11:02 -0500, riugakusei@netscape.net wrote: > i am running FC6 with an Atheros AR5005g NIC rev 1 card, i installed madwifi and loaded ath_pci module and my card des get recognized, i can see the wirless networkavalable but i won't pick up no ip address via dhcp,i get the following form dmesg|grep ath: > > #dmesg|grep ath: /* i have no ide what this output means */ > ath_hal: no version for"struct_module" foundkernel tainted > ath_hal: module license 'propietary ' taints kernel > ath_hal: 0.9.18 (AR5210, AR5211,RF5111,RF5112,RF2413,RF5413) > ath_rate_sample: 1.2 (0.9.13) > ath_pci: 0.9.4.5(0.9.3) > device-mapper: multippath : version 1.0.4 loaded Means module loaded correctly. No Errors here > from dmesg|grep wifi0: > wifi0: 11g rates: 1Mdps 2mps 5.5 mps 48 mps 54mps / *there were several lines because they had the same ouput */ > wifi): H/W encriion supported: WEP AES AES_CCM TKIP > wifi0: use hw que 1 for WME_ACBE traffffic > wif0:Atheros 5212: mem= 0xc300000, irq=2333 Indicates the card is working and the firmware is loaded. Again, no errors. > from lsmod|grep ath: > dm_multipath 22601 0 > d_mod 61529 2 dm_mirror,dm_multpath > ath_pci 91940 0 > ath_rate_sample 17536 1 ath_pci > wlan 185948 4 4 wlan_scan_sta,ath_pci,ath_rate_sample > ath_hal 195152 3 ath_pci,ath_rate_sample This shows that the modules are loaded and the associated dependencies. Looks good. Now we need the output of: `iwconfig ath0` `ifconfig ath0` Any details about the wireless access point to which you are trying to connect would also help. > hope that info can help you figure my problem., i just don't want to use Windows . thanks for your patience > Vega > > -----Original Message----- > From: bruce.dubbs@gmail.com > To: satlug@satlug.org > Sent: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 2:23 PMe > Subject: Re: [SATLUG] error while executing make > > R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > > > On Nov 30, 2006, at 2:19 AM, riugakusei@netscape.net wrote: > > > >> i havea acer aspire 9300 laptop i did a fresh install of f c 6, al > >> i got to do is complile the acer_acpi module and enable the wireless > >> in order for it to work. y problem ste following. > >> everytime i do make it gives me a lot of errors, any idea how to get > >> around this? my wireless card is an Atheros AR5005G rev 01, i loaaded > >> ath_pci and it gets rcognized... but still no wirlesss...any help? > >> Medar > > > > Error messages! We need error messages! > > The above *is* an error message. It certainly is not coherent. > > -- Bruce > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (0www.rackspace.com) > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 11:47:31 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Fri Dec 1 11:47:39 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] help with wireless card Atheros ARG5005 rev 01 In-Reply-To: <1164993870.21228.69.camel@spook.abacussg.com> References: <8C8E26F6F6F12F2-BE0-DF3C@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> <46593AE2-B291-4CC6-8273-42459DF455A6@bleepsoft.com> <456F3DB9.9000205@gmail.com> <8C8E379381B8241-860-A869@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> <1164993870.21228.69.camel@spook.abacussg.com> Message-ID: <45706AB3.7030402@gmail.com> John Pappas wrote: > Now we need the output of: > `iwconfig ath0` > `ifconfig ath0` I have found that you may need to first run `ifconfig ath0 up` to activate the card. Then things like `iwlist ath0 scan` work properly. -- Bruce From tyler at bleepsoft.com Fri Dec 1 11:49:45 2006 From: tyler at bleepsoft.com (R. Tyler Ballance) Date: Fri Dec 1 11:49:53 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27CB59F7-B5B8-43DB-9BF8-DEADE37788B4@bleepsoft.com> On Dec 1, 2006, at 9:43 AM, Sexton, Art, ISD wrote: > My contribution today is in OS390 assembler...but I will translate for > those of you who do not speak that language. > > I uncovered this one while debugging Y2k changes and kept it > as...well...a WTF. Now keep in mind this one did not bite us until > Dec > 31, 2000. Yikes! Today's WTF won't be a code WTF, but rather a more abstract WTF. When asking aforementioned manager/exec type why he doesn't put any of his code into the Subversion repository his response boiled down to: "I have been a programmer for so long i dont need it" Ouch.[1] Cheers [1] http://bleepsoft.com/tyler/index.php?itemid=104 R. Tyler Ballance: Lead Mac Developer at bleep. software contact: tyler@bleepsoft.com | jabber: tyler@jabber.geekisp.com From jesse at liberto.org Fri Dec 1 12:04:20 2006 From: jesse at liberto.org (Jesse Gonzalez) Date: Fri Dec 1 12:04:15 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: <27CB59F7-B5B8-43DB-9BF8-DEADE37788B4@bleepsoft.com> References: <27CB59F7-B5B8-43DB-9BF8-DEADE37788B4@bleepsoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:49:45 -0600, R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > On Dec 1, 2006, at 9:43 AM, Sexton, Art, ISD wrote: > >> My contribution today is in OS390 assembler...but I will translate for >> those of you who do not speak that language. >> >> I uncovered this one while debugging Y2k changes and kept it >> as...well...a WTF. Now keep in mind this one did not bite us until Dec >> 31, 2000. > > Yikes! > > > Today's WTF won't be a code WTF, but rather a more abstract WTF. When > asking aforementioned manager/exec type why he doesn't put any of his > code into the Subversion repository his response boiled down to: > > > "I have been a programmer for so long i dont need it" > > > Ouch.[1] > > Cheers > > > [1] http://bleepsoft.com/tyler/index.php?itemid=104 > > R. Tyler Ballance: Lead Mac Developer at bleep. software > contact: tyler@bleepsoft.com | jabber: tyler@jabber.geekisp.com How about this one. I walk into the office today and a member of our IT department comes to me and says, "I recieved a message from an executive last night with a weird zip attachment. I was unsure, so I ran a virus scan...and nothing was found." I had to stop him right there, it was feeling more and more like a Monday, and ask him bluntly, "You didn't open it did you?". Well he had, luckily he refrained from running the exe found within the zip. I can accept things like this my end users, but a member of the IT department, come on. ~jesse -- Jesse Gonzalez Network Administrator Liberto Management Co., Inc. (210) 253 2285 office (210) 563 6280 mobile From tyler at bleepsoft.com Fri Dec 1 12:08:48 2006 From: tyler at bleepsoft.com (R. Tyler Ballance) Date: Fri Dec 1 12:08:56 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: References: <27CB59F7-B5B8-43DB-9BF8-DEADE37788B4@bleepsoft.com> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2006, at 12:04 PM, Jesse Gonzalez wrote: > I had to stop him right there, it was feeling more and more like a > Monday, > and ask him bluntly, "You didn't open it did you?". Well he had, > luckily > he refrained from running the exe found within the zip. > > I can accept things like this my end users, but a member of the IT > department, > come on. Where's your sense of adventure! :) Cheers R. Tyler Ballance: Lead Mac Developer at bleep. software contact: tyler@bleepsoft.com | jabber: tyler@jabber.geekisp.com From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 12:14:09 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Fri Dec 1 12:14:13 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: References: <27CB59F7-B5B8-43DB-9BF8-DEADE37788B4@bleepsoft.com> Message-ID: <457070F1.3050601@gmail.com> Jesse Gonzalez wrote: > How about this one. > > I walk into the office today and a member of our IT department comes to me > and says, "I recieved a message from an executive last night with a > weird zip attachment. I was unsure, so I ran a virus scan...and nothing was > found." > > I had to stop him right there, it was feeling more and more like a Monday, > and ask him bluntly, "You didn't open it did you?". Well he had, luckily > he refrained from running the exe found within the zip. > > I can accept things like this my end users, but a member of the IT > department, > come on. What's the problem? I open zips all the time. The virii never affect my Linux box. Oh, wait.... -- Bruce From dkowis at shlrm.org Fri Dec 1 13:35:00 2006 From: dkowis at shlrm.org (David Kowis) Date: Fri Dec 1 13:32:43 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: <456F672E.6040105@gmail.com> References: <0283E602-B64A-4A3F-8F50-3B2897C324A3@bleepsoft.com> <456F5ACD.7060304@gmail.com> <456F5CFC.40006@gmail.com> <456F5DD1.7070606@gmail.com> <456F64A6.3020202@gmail.com> <456F672E.6040105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <457083E4.6050105@shlrm.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 pixelnate wrote: > Bruce Dubbs wrote: >> > "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd"> >> > > Ah, the sweet smell of the XHTML strict doctype. These pages that the > previous code was taken from did not even include a doctype, but I digress. > > I was always too lazy to use strict, I used xhtml transitional. But i'm a lousy web developer. I'm much better at like something else that's not graphical. My creative brain sucks. David -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iQGVAwUBRXCD5Mnf+vRw63ObAQr8ogwAgIGIUTKf1K626AEQ5ALJB4EYoAJ0i7hl gbauFZM/LrElUUbQSUnX3/tqqsi8VzNfGSvdTp1tmsDkf/DjnalT0UixWak7T4c4 Qy88n3SDKhSJk7rZKoDE0bU/mJhg+RAt0QCscjnf0/6gAx2RjbqLMhnupj+S3CyV xSZDhXU4Q3f6+Zzwg6cCN/1KvowWXO21AqrCm9X8RaBbWqh5wwm/GaCzf8mjqxBz qBV4etUqOBhMKi/1zmSkZyfapYyAfHlPkI+gxEwXDk0RMMzQu3fa6a+gfHyzo/by 7jKIQ+Gm4gTNuXpy7Frzsx16/P8XLc60HXEtKgfMBFqK6dqa09eA2NdxSTE9CkeD g/9SYNZ49ouOlxx+4aX51irblDBlEubVbX2v54Pc6qH9zhHVicEMNSZvDqDf3K60 cV/xrzJh9V5sNx9OE8Dd6SpPxXppikqMD2/uCSikzgAs8DPqbH6M72u2vwQFj3u3 xk2X1bnYM40CjTrG837aVmx9XRhuWDZZ =sLne -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dkowis at shlrm.org Fri Dec 1 13:38:31 2006 From: dkowis at shlrm.org (David Kowis) Date: Fri Dec 1 13:36:14 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: <4154519d0611301828m2e718ee1qf08576654e896159@mail.gmail.com> References: <0283E602-B64A-4A3F-8F50-3B2897C324A3@bleepsoft.com> <4154519d0611301828m2e718ee1qf08576654e896159@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <457084B7.4030600@shlrm.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Mike Wallace wrote: >> I showed you mine, now show me yours. Please tell me you all have >> some WTFs, else I've have to go try to drown myself in a pint of >> Guinness :) > > > There was one time when we tried to explain the value of using bit > fields to a very junior developer. We had explained that if you had a > lot of related boolean flags, instead of creating booleans for each, > you can represent the values with the individual bits of an integer. > Someone made the unfortunate comment of thinking about things as just > being a sequence of 1's and 0's where 1 represented true and 0 > represented false. > > Well, later we see some of the code where our very junior developer > had used this strategy. All of the code was written in Java, by the > way. We did not find any integer declarations or bit shifting or > anything like that. Instead we find a String where the value of the > string itself was a sequence of the characters "0" and "1". Then to > access a particular value, our developer was pulling out an individual > character from the string and then doing a string compare operation > against the String "1". > > We're just glad that we found this bit of Java wizardry early on. I > think all of us were just shaking our heads at that one. Wow. I've seen some bad java, but wow. That's a good one. David -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iQGVAwUBRXCEt8nf+vRw63ObAQolfAv9EdjA9t24BW4dYETEajTkoRApwfPT6pGR g7TEDcYVeUSndKeViG20d4S7cUBsneouzhlayPp+T6BAwfNANv1uoJWA5MeJYxU9 uJpmQ8m9AQGs2QvEO6dVW1BRa4gcg1lafcNybUl91xieCFeYYCmQM2500IOpoUJH VpcQjK7wsm961qv/SVSimjmd4iS0/LBV1Hyczly4lGwYXqDX51LXKjNC+hc2jt0/ A4zk9ZKVcoJcd8HMHUV8b3AawwaMYmoY/Cu6S23fwtgrM5wYe55Ithb2eT0QCrkB ZE3w9VOs2JtvoeNFdWYWklbYL3rlNg0f4VtvPxgbZHeHT2UyV4Rq6Cf9D36qG3nM 1Bf5yNf3mxSKYRrg2vPxOrVdmUzPEtv2kzEBXKuwyDMLly6ExzH/PeLuIjCqjEhh EYnihQVVTQ/mpiKRNPmbaFCsZ7mZ+sSM6k6n+2VI5xl8Zzv1eVFr2wnIzedEUfhL O4y9vI/fVy73HLL3axAD93UkMDD2SZwi =dWjc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From justizin at siggraph.org Fri Dec 1 13:38:13 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Fri Dec 1 13:38:21 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] RE: kerberos In-Reply-To: <20061201164828.GA19319@spoonix.com> References: <20061129052417.6480E43E1AB@satlug.org> <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> <1164916009.21228.34.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <456F3CBF.1060001@gmail.com> <456F6456.7010908@shlrm.org> <77be04730612010721u66d1763fvf194b8a9886e178@mail.gmail.com> <20061201154025.GA19102@spoonix.com> <77be04730612010755l4680c9acl2b866124ef43cca4@mail.gmail.com> <20061201164828.GA19319@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612011138t41a6b115k4b0a7aeee96c5496@mail.gmail.com> On 12/1/06, K. Spoon wrote: > On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 09:55:34AM -0600, Justizin wrote: > > On 12/1/06, K. Spoon wrote: > > >How does an md5 hash not satisfy this requirement? You don't have to > > >store passwords in LDAP in the clear... md5 and crypt are supported out > > >of the box. > > > > Well, this means I have to hand out a private key to a thousand > > application developers, right? :/ > > What? No. > > http://userpages.umbc.edu/~mabzug1/cs/md5/md5.html > > The basic gist is that you take a string, run it through the md5 > algorithm, and store the hash that's created somewhere... like, the > /etc/passwd file or say, an LDAP server. Only the hash is saved... > password is dropped after the hash is created. Oh, duh, I've known this for years. For some reason I was thinking of the way we used to encrypt passwords at Rackspace which strained the trust network, which was not an md5 hash but some key-based encryption. The goal is different because we needed to actually see people's passwords so that we could remind them, though an md5 hash-based system which could automatically *reset* the password on someone's server would be far more secure. ;) > Whenever a user wants to authenticate, the application that they type > their password into computes another md5 hash which is then sent back to > the authentication server for it to compare against what's stored using some > mathemagical formula I won't even pretend to understand. I also won't pretend to understand this bit. ;) > If the 2 hashes match up, the server sends back a thumbs up and the > application awards authentication to the user... if not, try again, Beavis. > > No common cert is needed (because the md5 algorithm is what's shared), > and the only thing sent over the wire is the hash, not the password > itself. This is why everything from login to apache uses it, and > because there's no (easy) way to "decrypt" the password from the hash > it's why so many authentication systems require the admin to reset > instead of resend passwords. > > Also.. I happen to know for a fact that Plone in 2003 was indeed capable > of handling not only authentication via LDAP, but could even speak md5. > In addition, we used posixGroups to establish user authorization to > various parts of the site. Plone and LDAP have issues, and python-ldap hangs Zope threads for some reason that noone seems to care about. I'm glad to write "fixing python-ldap" into my proposal, but I'd like to nail down what all python libs I'm going to need before offering to take up maintainership of all of them. FWIW, plone.org runs on a single machine, which is not going to happen with acm.org. That is the only reason plone.org does not hang from its' LDAP authentication, and I think there are too many small Plone clients who don't care about this for some reason, even though at least half of the reason of using Plone is to scale better than PHP. The ACM is probably a good organization to step in and improve some things here, but maybe some parts of the architecture are weak and we don't want to take ownership of them. I will already be configuring PAM+LDAP on all of the Plone servers so that, for instance, members of the "System Managers" group will have ssh. It does seem like a wise suggestion which I got not only from my friend Sean, but from Nick Borko, to hand credentials to PAM instead of owning some python code which is architecturally similar - in fact, this code in Zope is called PAS. Are they "pluggable modules" or "plugins for an authentication service" ? Fun. :) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From dkowis at shlrm.org Fri Dec 1 13:42:10 2006 From: dkowis at shlrm.org (David Kowis) Date: Fri Dec 1 13:39:53 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] RE: kerberos In-Reply-To: <77be04730612010721u66d1763fvf194b8a9886e178@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061129052417.6480E43E1AB@satlug.org> <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> <1164916009.21228.34.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <456F3CBF.1060001@gmail.com> <456F6456.7010908@shlrm.org> <77be04730612010721u66d1763fvf194b8a9886e178@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45708592.2020302@shlrm.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Justizin wrote: > On 11/30/06, David Kowis wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA512 >> >> Bruce Dubbs wrote: >> > John Pappas wrote: >> > >> >> Is LDAP over SSL a solution to handle the transport security problem? >> > > > The problem is not transport security, it's the size of the trust network. > >> > I believe that is one option. Another is SASL -- or a combination. >> > >> > -- Bruce >> >> I've done LDAP over a tls certificate based system. it works well enough >> for pam_ldap and nss_ldap. I use a host based certificate, so each host >> has it's own cert for establishing the TLS stuff. I looked into ldap + >> kerberos, but it was too much of a PITA for me and my lonesome. >> > > I can see how properly encrypted LDAP communications are rather > secure, but consider that I will more or less need to hand out access > to a database of a half million plus people to innumerate application > developers at all levels of an international organization. Right now, > Plone, which is going to be our core, encrypts passwords in such a way > that I can reset them, but not read them. If you lose your password, > much like with Yahoo or any other online service, you have to have a > confirmation e-mail sent. In a huge community kerberos will help. It provides standard authentication mechanisms for any number of things. You'll have to do coding no matter what for applications that don't have kerberos support either optional or built in. But for a Single Sign on type thing kerberos will do well. Or if you need to authenticate over an unsafe medium. > > The ACM has very stringent policies on privacy, security, etc.. We > are also a huge community, so I'm trying to serve both. I am going to > provide Chapters, SIGs, etc.. with a ton of tools to build web > presences using Plone, but some of them will want to use Rails or PHP > or CFM or whatever, and that's fine. I want them to be able to use a > simple, accessible means of determining if a given id is a non-paying > "web account", an ACM Member, a SIG Member, and/or a member of one or > more Chapters. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iQGVAwUBRXCFksnf+vRw63ObAQqHfAv/VzbS/S98jaAC22wXpQxv87mTUkW0+Nqf czRIrKHxH8YtJgcgsY5nWzj7p2Jr+zYpkz8WEo3oQlfTv0Kxi5034CgmEoQgIKOr KdvG/deactiOewx8fCcJLUQMDhpT3gNYMTSLYoafQDswVAMAevkmJKSZMEzoWrfm DXaaDEEaIdSiEMdgbVyHCnzeLrxL3q/JZKPY4NLVvdxbCi8pSx7ybB1PDzgANMJ2 NGGItPwnV6GhIFZ1PrVS7JX7hcAGuQnDAGf3PNsGg2sKd2vgBsaSZ6efr5ds17Sz 2VQty84XzlG4Is2qE2Ed5l4SUkvPT1vMlEhfCL/qZ9J+ANgP3ttVuy1o6vOVnBRJ U3cphj7VBwRyGxelViUNFgU4VL7liDfHCyRDEeAwHXb1mirKBndHOwKsQPB6bdOq ssAe6RMgddPIRtgqxjrKjJ/4d+mViU2CB6UMZYfseUExPndeKG9ifIcnwVxZDQxk ZUu5y5H6eVVN72VUXINyUr3KCDJxHYzg =/sZ+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dkowis at shlrm.org Fri Dec 1 13:45:51 2006 From: dkowis at shlrm.org (David Kowis) Date: Fri Dec 1 13:43:38 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sun's Project Black Box In-Reply-To: <4570510D.40205@gmail.com> References: <45705027.6080901@nvision2020.com> <4570510D.40205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4570866F.6000306@shlrm.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 pixelnate wrote: > Dean McCall wrote: >> >> * A single Project Blackbox could accommodate 250 Sun Fire T1000 >> servers with the CoolThreads technology >> with 2000 cores >> and 8000 simultaneous threads. >> * A single Project Blackbox could accommodate 250 x64-based servers >> with 1000 cores. >> * A single Project Blackbox could provide as much as 1.5 petabytes >> of disk storage or 2 petabytes of energy-efficient tape storage. >> * A single Project Blackbox could provide 7 terabytes of memory. >> * A single Project Blackbox could handle up to 10,000 simultaneous >> desktop users. >> * A single Project Blackbox currently has sufficient power and >> cooling to support 200 kilowatts of rackmounted equipment. > > > Wow, you could have a CounterStrike:Source server with 10000+ players on > the same map! Kewl. > 9999 campers and one l33t haxx0r!1 Who will carry the day? Stupidly, David -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iQGVAwUBRXCGbsnf+vRw63ObAQrlGAwArx8x5bV7rAozj6AzO73sOvCxl8kUvIaD lkSNErjCHxm5Y7UqqNMs3GdsCUF5lkRpv//YzzeVs+dOTm5Vn72/pS31HNlVgqnp drXspOYw3HXSjSizVKXW9RIlYGJIcbnLYY1DrhWhn9W94le7+MGBaJywn29QhwxA MHtlmAiJvX7GiaBP00VCynpu+SaLhNbSLbGpYowBaW4r+RMjPQhld5cSeuEa37ZB 8ArdIhEYQePNJ4A8YIGYz+6/OuDwovGvpztgmkwYhJ1wkovCIJq9ndTTBSbY42QV 1Rcu++8EusLL0szE8ZKFRcVVlZlPHZpjEsUOnBWZC5/AU++rwt7ZJSxbm7s9Kizt 0CiJtcXV7tCNcKL/JBZ58o2rhrfFo7ZU1TH0d3myG9p1f8CDdweAvYHbyA6Ljauu F7ZneFONiQMmLfb6m8MucHBtGrWiMuNkXGCpk1R23+HFipCAtnOEQoPrtVrDIMti p3Mqk7z3bxiwUXqFX+zDk6HkeK7NRtrx =LIBf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pixelnate at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 13:48:09 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (pixelnate) Date: Fri Dec 1 13:50:17 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: <457083E4.6050105@shlrm.org> References: <0283E602-B64A-4A3F-8F50-3B2897C324A3@bleepsoft.com> <456F5ACD.7060304@gmail.com> <456F5CFC.40006@gmail.com> <456F5DD1.7070606@gmail.com> <456F64A6.3020202@gmail.com> <456F672E.6040105@gmail.com> <457083E4.6050105@shlrm.org> Message-ID: <457086F9.1000800@gmail.com> David Kowis wrote: > I was always too lazy to use strict, I used xhtml transitional. > > But i'm a lousy web developer. I'm much better at like something else > that's not graphical. My creative brain sucks. > > Once you get used to the changes between HTML and XHTML, like anything else, it becomes second nature after awhile. I made the switch because it is easier to manage IE CSS parsing bugs. Man, I just hate IE. That is the biggest WTF I ever deal with. IMHO, v7 isn't ready for prime time either. It hangs every time I try and load a secure page. [ugh] ~Nate From pixelnate at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 13:49:26 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (pixelnate) Date: Fri Dec 1 13:51:34 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sun's Project Black Box In-Reply-To: <4570866F.6000306@shlrm.org> References: <45705027.6080901@nvision2020.com> <4570510D.40205@gmail.com> <4570866F.6000306@shlrm.org> Message-ID: <45708746.9040300@gmail.com> David Kowis wrote: > 9999 campers and one l33t haxx0r!1 Who will carry the day? > > Yeah, a map full of awp fairies. ~Nate From justizin at siggraph.org Fri Dec 1 14:01:02 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Fri Dec 1 14:01:05 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sun's Project Black Box In-Reply-To: <45705027.6080901@nvision2020.com> References: <45705027.6080901@nvision2020.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612011201n79a29954o2712bdb188e8ff87@mail.gmail.com> read: "Sun innovates by offering Google-style infrastructure as a generic product." On 12/1/06, Dean McCall wrote: > Has anyone else seen Sun's project black box project? Quite an > interesting idea on modular data centers design...good fodder for a > Friday... > > > A Novel Datacenter Concept > > Project Blackbox packages compute, storage, and network infrastructure > capabilities into scalable, modular units outfitted with > state-of-the-art cooling, monitoring, and power distribution systems. > Customers will be able to order a variety of standard and custom > configurations of systems, storage, networking, and software. Housed in > a standard 20-foot shipping container for maximum flexibility, Project > Blackbox will be easily transported using common shipping methods. > Simple hookups for water, AC power, and networking will enable customers > to quickly deploy Project Blackbox upon delivery. > > > Inside Project Blackbox > > The Project Blackbox prototype is a computing powerhouse capable of > hosting a configuration that would place it among the top 200 fastest > supercomputers globally. The current prototype could support the > following capacities: > > * A single Project Blackbox could accommodate 250 Sun Fire T1000 > servers with the CoolThreads technology > with 2000 cores > and 8000 simultaneous threads. > * A single Project Blackbox could accommodate 250 x64-based servers > with 1000 cores. > * A single Project Blackbox could provide as much as 1.5 petabytes > of disk storage or 2 petabytes of energy-efficient tape storage. > * A single Project Blackbox could provide 7 terabytes of memory. > * A single Project Blackbox could handle up to 10,000 simultaneous > desktop users. > * A single Project Blackbox currently has sufficient power and > cooling to support 200 kilowatts of rackmounted equipment. > > https://photos.sun.com/page/1182 > > Dean > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From dean.mccall at nvision2020.com Fri Dec 1 14:16:45 2006 From: dean.mccall at nvision2020.com (Dean McCall) Date: Fri Dec 1 14:16:49 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sun's Project Black Box In-Reply-To: <77be04730612011201n79a29954o2712bdb188e8ff87@mail.gmail.com> References: <45705027.6080901@nvision2020.com> <77be04730612011201n79a29954o2712bdb188e8ff87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45708DAD.2020304@nvision2020.com> Justizin wrote: > read: "Sun innovates by offering Google-style infrastructure as a > generic product." hehe yeah I saw that...I will ponder that one for a while... Have to say though I am pretty impressed with Sun's CoolThreads line of servers...as a data center guy I can attest to these things cutting down on the juice. With little to no compromise on performance. Best of all they will run on Gentoo and Unbuntu in addition to OpenSolaris. As people get concerned more and more with the environment it's nice to see someone making a effort. As and technologist and an environmentalist I live a very conflicted life;) dean > > On 12/1/06, Dean McCall wrote: >> Has anyone else seen Sun's project black box project? Quite an >> interesting idea on modular data centers design...good fodder for a >> Friday... >> >> >> A Novel Datacenter Concept >> >> Project Blackbox packages compute, storage, and network infrastructure >> capabilities into scalable, modular units outfitted with >> state-of-the-art cooling, monitoring, and power distribution systems. >> Customers will be able to order a variety of standard and custom >> configurations of systems, storage, networking, and software. Housed in >> a standard 20-foot shipping container for maximum flexibility, Project >> Blackbox will be easily transported using common shipping methods. >> Simple hookups for water, AC power, and networking will enable customers >> to quickly deploy Project Blackbox upon delivery. >> >> >> Inside Project Blackbox >> >> The Project Blackbox prototype is a computing powerhouse capable of >> hosting a configuration that would place it among the top 200 fastest >> supercomputers globally. The current prototype could support the >> following capacities: >> >> * A single Project Blackbox could accommodate 250 Sun Fire T1000 >> servers with the CoolThreads technology >> with 2000 cores >> and 8000 simultaneous threads. >> * A single Project Blackbox could accommodate 250 x64-based servers >> with 1000 cores. >> * A single Project Blackbox could provide as much as 1.5 petabytes >> of disk storage or 2 petabytes of energy-efficient tape storage. >> * A single Project Blackbox could provide 7 terabytes of memory. >> * A single Project Blackbox could handle up to 10,000 simultaneous >> desktop users. >> * A single Project Blackbox currently has sufficient power and >> cooling to support 200 kilowatts of rackmounted equipment. >> >> https://photos.sun.com/page/1182 >> >> Dean >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> SATLUG mailing list >> SATLUG@satlug.org >> http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe >> Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) >> > > From justizin at siggraph.org Fri Dec 1 14:24:12 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Fri Dec 1 14:24:15 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] RE: kerberos In-Reply-To: <45708592.2020302@shlrm.org> References: <20061129052417.6480E43E1AB@satlug.org> <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> <1164916009.21228.34.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <456F3CBF.1060001@gmail.com> <456F6456.7010908@shlrm.org> <77be04730612010721u66d1763fvf194b8a9886e178@mail.gmail.com> <45708592.2020302@shlrm.org> Message-ID: <77be04730612011224k66497038q293deb59ecd130d9@mail.gmail.com> On 12/1/06, David Kowis wrote: > > In a huge community kerberos will help. It provides standard > authentication mechanisms for any number of things. You'll have to do > coding no matter what for applications that don't have kerberos support > either optional or built in. But for a Single Sign on type thing > kerberos will do well. Or if you need to authenticate over an unsafe medium. > Hm.. Looking at what Columbia does here: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/sy/unixdev/tekiki/web-auth.html I'll probably have to end up going this route. It already felt like I should use kerberos, but maybe allow for direct LDAP auth with hashes so that other apps can get to it. We also currently have something sort of like WIND for all systems which comply with the login policy. This ensures that people see everything ACM Legal wants them to before having any sort of priveledged access to servers. Plone will probably become the "de facto" login like Columbia's "WIND", and I know of some people, the FSF being one, doing work to share login cookies and/or sessions between Plone and other apps like MediaWiki. I was hoping it wouldn't come to this - instead of choosing an authentication solution, using everything possible, but I suppose once you think about it, it makes sense. It's probably not going to hurt my pocketbook to start getting to know PAM, nsswitch, LDAP, and KRB5 better. ;) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From mikeaw at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 14:43:31 2006 From: mikeaw at gmail.com (Mike Wallace) Date: Fri Dec 1 14:43:34 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: <457086F9.1000800@gmail.com> References: <0283E602-B64A-4A3F-8F50-3B2897C324A3@bleepsoft.com> <456F5ACD.7060304@gmail.com> <456F5CFC.40006@gmail.com> <456F5DD1.7070606@gmail.com> <456F64A6.3020202@gmail.com> <456F672E.6040105@gmail.com> <457083E4.6050105@shlrm.org> <457086F9.1000800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4154519d0612011243y707fa299neebf7b623b9a5544@mail.gmail.com> In the Java/JSP world, I came across a project where it seems that the developers only knew how to include pages with the include directive. Nowhere did I see references to the element despite that the vast majority of included files were other JSPs. For those of you who are unfamiliar with JSP, the include directive loads in the included file statically. After the inclusion of the file, the JSP is then translated and compiled down to a servlet. The element can include either static or dynamic content. If including a dynamic page, such as another JSP, the included JSP is translated and its results are sent back to the original JSP for inclusion. Either solution will work fine if what you're including is always static, however, in almost each and every included file, there were tons variables all over the place. Nowhere in the included files were these variables defined because all the variables being used were defined in the original JSP which included the others!! In order to find out what a particular variable was doing, I'd have to find the file(s) which included the file the variable was in and then find its original declaration. Sometimes the static includes were nested a few layers, and in a few cases, whether or not a file was included was the result of some test. So, not only were variables declared who knows where, but sometimes you didn't know if that particular JSP was even being included! I tried to sort through things by opening the JSPs in Eclipse, but then Eclipse began highlighting nearly every line with red or yellow squiggles. Eclipse was trying hard to make sense of it and it eventually gave up. It actually got to the point that when I'd make a change, Eclipse would hang for a while trying to figure out the new warnings and errors. Eventually, I had to turn off all warning and error checking just to make progress. Finally, I managed to reform the included files to make them valid stand-alone JSPs and replace all the <%@include%> with . I really am amazed that the original developers were even able to develop as complex as a system they did. It was an intricate web, and removing one seemingly innocuous variable from a file causes nothing to compile any more. Yeesh. From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 14:52:52 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Fri Dec 1 14:52:55 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] RE: kerberos In-Reply-To: <20061201164828.GA19319@spoonix.com> References: <20061129052417.6480E43E1AB@satlug.org> <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> <1164916009.21228.34.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <456F3CBF.1060001@gmail.com> <456F6456.7010908@shlrm.org> <77be04730612010721u66d1763fvf194b8a9886e178@mail.gmail.com> <20061201154025.GA19102@spoonix.com> <77be04730612010755l4680c9acl2b866124ef43cca4@mail.gmail.com> <20061201164828.GA19319@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <45709624.6070004@gmail.com> K. Spoon wrote: > The basic gist is that you take a string, run it through the md5 > algorithm, and store the hash that's created somewhere... like, the > /etc/passwd file or say, an LDAP server. Only the hash is saved... > password is dropped after the hash is created. > > Whenever a user wants to authenticate, the application that they type > their password into computes another md5 hash which is then sent back to > the authentication server for it to compare against what's stored using some > mathemagical formula I won't even pretend to understand. This can only be secure if the hash is sent over an encrypted link. The hash is a "password equivalent" and, if captured, can be used to make the same authentication from another location. Another way is to store the actual password on the server and send something like a hash of a timestamp plus the password. The authentication server then tests the timestamp for reasonableness (say within a second or two) and calculates the hash from the timestamp and the saved password. If that matches the transmitted timestamp, access is allowed. -- Bruce From dkowis at shlrm.org Fri Dec 1 15:13:18 2006 From: dkowis at shlrm.org (David Kowis) Date: Fri Dec 1 15:11:00 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] RE: kerberos In-Reply-To: <45709624.6070004@gmail.com> References: <20061129052417.6480E43E1AB@satlug.org> <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> <1164916009.21228.34.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <456F3CBF.1060001@gmail.com> <456F6456.7010908@shlrm.org> <77be04730612010721u66d1763fvf194b8a9886e178@mail.gmail.com> <20061201154025.GA19102@spoonix.com> <77be04730612010755l4680c9acl2b866124ef43cca4@mail.gmail.com> <20061201164828.GA19319@spoonix.com> <45709624.6070004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45709AEE.1070901@shlrm.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Bruce Dubbs wrote: > Another way is to store the actual password on the server and send > something like a hash of a timestamp plus the password. The > authentication server then tests the timestamp for reasonableness (say > within a second or two) and calculates the hash from the timestamp and > the saved password. If that matches the transmitted timestamp, access > is allowed. > One would note that's the same thing kerberos does :) It just also adds a single sign on ticket thingy. David -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iQGVAwUBRXCa7snf+vRw63ObAQpjzAv/Y1RM2a9fXc1V+8nE5Wya2fDd/9utFroa srEqVv5Q0muMntHvHGy9pkeJSE7+eu1eu0Xwu+8boWlVaFRaIIZA2t5kdtCm5/ec HFojejsKbBFLNSDUx6jRBBdskcuEsv+m1Zwoqqh8mJeDGBFAdzy7q3TBJ4oWn/YJ Fz+SsHo1aEl6RaG2QXAiiW3KWBdDa/3MU6y+rY2qGt9CaLdmC5vGMEKpqqi5JFEH 2udfpLJ7dx0yc/SdepJjLPkpLGdQkcjD6N9VDapK2WiotSUcp4HHCK+Pmpsp5X7u Nmrfz4xC4EzeJxDia662BNyrINGq0EskchNdiTranA/I7rtPjs7v8e16U6g5YV9q N3ri9/QRwNzqcrbM+Jw8BIO6zW+b5z9gHq2JP2UQRbjiIlw9q19E07ZwRWpa21LN iDwKhObxaz6sMEyxmDwp2IxBQD6GgGK5qkoIj6jJv1RtO2rx+WsJbGvkpR/iCypl 8heixRj35MtTL+9B/HoDx3Z8DEW/uyEC =d9dX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tyler at bleepsoft.com Fri Dec 1 17:10:51 2006 From: tyler at bleepsoft.com (R. Tyler Ballance) Date: Fri Dec 1 17:11:00 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Merry Beermas Message-ID: <588F4B63-C111-4C88-A238-7F637C8C0909@bleepsoft.com> I really think the December meeting should be different, more social than most meetings, but more importantly, with the addition of Beer. I went ahead and threw up a page on the wiki: http://satlug.org/wiki/ index.php/Beermas Maybe just for december a change of pace? Besides BYOB get togethers are always enjoyable ;) Thoughts? Cheers R. Tyler Ballance: Lead Mac Developer at bleep. software contact: tyler@bleepsoft.com | jabber: tyler@jabber.geekisp.com From justizin at siggraph.org Fri Dec 1 17:24:25 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Fri Dec 1 17:24:27 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Merry Beermas In-Reply-To: <588F4B63-C111-4C88-A238-7F637C8C0909@bleepsoft.com> References: <588F4B63-C111-4C88-A238-7F637C8C0909@bleepsoft.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612011524n7de5f2a8n97e13e8e84e0c0a3@mail.gmail.com> If SATLUG has a Beermas, I might just try to find my way into town. I managed to raise about $250 and parlay it into a van stuffed with almost 20 cases of beer at the Plone Conference in Seattle recently, for our after-conference coding sprint. When I left town two days later, about four cases were left, and I woke up one morning with a luggage rack stacked with empty and full beer at the foot of my bed. good times.. The checker at the store was like: "Who do you guys work for?" To which we all responded: "Eh, ourselves? The greater good?" :-P On 12/1/06, R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > I really think the December meeting should be different, more social > than most meetings, but more importantly, with the addition of Beer. > > > I went ahead and threw up a page on the wiki: http://satlug.org/wiki/ > index.php/Beermas > > Maybe just for december a change of pace? Besides BYOB get togethers > are always enjoyable ;) > > > Thoughts? > > Cheers > > R. Tyler Ballance: Lead Mac Developer at bleep. software > contact: tyler@bleepsoft.com | jabber: tyler@jabber.geekisp.com > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From nathan at gvtc.com Fri Dec 1 17:58:31 2006 From: nathan at gvtc.com (Nathan Oxhandler) Date: Fri Dec 1 17:58:39 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Memory is the second thing to go In-Reply-To: <77be04730612011524n7de5f2a8n97e13e8e84e0c0a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <588F4B63-C111-4C88-A238-7F637C8C0909@bleepsoft.com> <77be04730612011524n7de5f2a8n97e13e8e84e0c0a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4570C1A7.7090402@gvtc.com> and I can't remember the first one. My SUSE died on me and I decided to download Fedora Core 6 and give it a try. My Dad says he is using it as do most of the LUG people he knows in Las Vegas. I do not want to get on a discussion about distro's or GUI's at this point, I have KDE set up to come up when I boot. My PuppyLinux, Knoppix, and SUSE, when it was running, all saw my 'Windows D' (FAT32, 8 Gig) drive no problem. Puppy and Knoppix were also easy to let me have full access to the drive, Puppy has it come up every time. FC6 under Logical Volume Management sees the drive as Uninitialized Entities /dev/hdc Partition 1 and 2. 1 is the boot and 2 is the data. I can not find where, with out going to the command line and editing files, to tell FC6 to mount the drive and give all users full access to it at every boot. I can access my 2 USB drives and 2 CD/DVD drives no problem. I have done all available updates to FC6, KDE and all software. Which menu item, yes I know I have to be root, do I use? Nathan From Dewayne.Duff at ogn.af.mil Fri Dec 1 18:12:21 2006 From: Dewayne.Duff at ogn.af.mil (Duff DeWayne SA AFOSI/Det 401) Date: Fri Dec 1 18:12:10 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Memory is the second thing to go In-Reply-To: <4570C1A7.7090402@gvtc.com> Message-ID: Not trying to be funny if this is more basic than you intended, but have you modified your /etc/fstab? --D? -----Original Message----- From: satlug-bounces@satlug.org [mailto:satlug-bounces@satlug.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Oxhandler Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:59 PM To: The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing List Subject: [SATLUG] Memory is the second thing to go and I can't remember the first one. My SUSE died on me and I decided to download Fedora Core 6 and give it a try. My Dad says he is using it as do most of the LUG people he knows in Las Vegas. I do not want to get on a discussion about distro's or GUI's at this point, I have KDE set up to come up when I boot. My PuppyLinux, Knoppix, and SUSE, when it was running, all saw my 'Windows D' (FAT32, 8 Gig) drive no problem. Puppy and Knoppix were also easy to let me have full access to the drive, Puppy has it come up every time. FC6 under Logical Volume Management sees the drive as Uninitialized Entities /dev/hdc Partition 1 and 2. 1 is the boot and 2 is the data. I can not find where, with out going to the command line and editing files, to tell FC6 to mount the drive and give all users full access to it at every boot. I can access my 2 USB drives and 2 CD/DVD drives no problem. I have done all available updates to FC6, KDE and all software. Which menu item, yes I know I have to be root, do I use? Nathan -- _______________________________________________ SATLUG mailing list SATLUG@satlug.org http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 18:14:47 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Fri Dec 1 18:14:50 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Merry Beermas In-Reply-To: <588F4B63-C111-4C88-A238-7F637C8C0909@bleepsoft.com> References: <588F4B63-C111-4C88-A238-7F637C8C0909@bleepsoft.com> Message-ID: <4570C577.3050107@gmail.com> R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > I really think the December meeting should be different, more social > than most meetings, but more importantly, with the addition of Beer. > > > I went ahead and threw up a page on the wiki: > http://satlug.org/wiki/index.php/Beermas > > Maybe just for december a change of pace? Besides BYOB get togethers are > always enjoyable ;) > > > Thoughts? A good idea, but we can't do it. SAC won't allow any alcohol. If you can find a location for *after* the meeting, that would be nice. -- Bruce From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Fri Dec 1 18:21:05 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Fri Dec 1 18:21:20 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Memory is the second thing to go In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4570C6F1.6010807@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Duff DeWayne SA AFOSI/Det 401 wrote: > Not trying to be funny if this is more basic than you intended, but have you modified your /etc/fstab? Even if fstab hasn't been edited yet, you can still, from the command line, mount the drive, and what type it is, and when that mount option works, -then- edit fstab and put it there. ie: for a samba share, I do something like mount -t smbfs //192.168.1.2/share-name /path/to/mount/to but, that's only when needed. my fstab looks something like: : > less /etc/fstab /dev/hda3 / reiserfs acl,user_xattr 1 1 /dev/hda1 /boot reiserfs acl,user_xattr 1 2 /dev/hdb1 /new80gig ext3 defaults 1 2 /dev/sda1 /scsi reiserfs defaults 1 2 /dev/hda2 swap swap defaults 0 0 proc /proc proc defaults 0 0 sysfs /sys sysfs noauto 0 0 usbfs /proc/bus/usb usbfs noauto 0 0 devpts /dev/pts devpts mode=0620,gid=5 0 0 /dev/cdrom /media/cdrom subfs noauto,fs=cdfss,ro,procuid,nosuid,nodev,exec,iocharset=utf8 0 0 /dev/fd0 /media/floppy subfs noauto,fs=floppyfss,procuid,nodev,nosuid,sync 0 0 -- 73 = Best Regards, -Geoff/W5OMR A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? From tyler at bleepsoft.com Fri Dec 1 18:21:26 2006 From: tyler at bleepsoft.com (R. Tyler Ballance) Date: Fri Dec 1 18:21:34 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Merry Beermas In-Reply-To: <4570C577.3050107@gmail.com> References: <588F4B63-C111-4C88-A238-7F637C8C0909@bleepsoft.com> <4570C577.3050107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <05A66A66-F9DD-4E4D-9D38-4ED62A095372@bleepsoft.com> On Dec 1, 2006, at 6:14 PM, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > R. Tyler Ballance wrote: >> I really think the December meeting should be different, more social >> than most meetings, but more importantly, with the addition of Beer. >> >> >> I went ahead and threw up a page on the wiki: >> http://satlug.org/wiki/index.php/Beermas >> >> Maybe just for december a change of pace? Besides BYOB get >> togethers are >> always enjoyable ;) >> >> >> Thoughts? > > A good idea, but we can't do it. SAC won't allow any alcohol. If you > can find a location for *after* the meeting, that would be nice. I'm not saying at SAC, I'm saying we hold the "meeting" elsewhere and celebrate Beermas :) R. Tyler Ballance: Lead Mac Developer at bleep. software contact: tyler@bleepsoft.com | jabber: tyler@jabber.geekisp.com From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Fri Dec 1 18:33:58 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Fri Dec 1 18:34:07 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Merry Beermas In-Reply-To: <4570C577.3050107@gmail.com> References: <588F4B63-C111-4C88-A238-7F637C8C0909@bleepsoft.com> <4570C577.3050107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4570C9F6.3020507@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Bruce Dubbs wrote: > R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > >> I really think the December meeting should be different, more social >> than most meetings, but more importantly, with the addition of Beer. >> >> >> I went ahead and threw up a page on the wiki: >> http://satlug.org/wiki/index.php/Beermas >> >> Maybe just for december a change of pace? Besides BYOB get togethers are >> always enjoyable ;) >> > A good idea, but we can't do it. SAC won't allow any alcohol. If you > can find a location for *after* the meeting, that would be nice. There aren't any pizza joints that sell beer, anywhere near SAC that someone can't think of? ;-) c'mon... there's gotta be more than a few.. 'sides that, the St. Mary's Strip is 'right there' (well, close enough) Because I'm lazy, when is the actual meeting set to occur this month? From leon36 at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 18:36:37 2006 From: leon36 at gmail.com (Samuel Leon) Date: Fri Dec 1 18:36:43 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Merry Beermas In-Reply-To: <05A66A66-F9DD-4E4D-9D38-4ED62A095372@bleepsoft.com> References: <588F4B63-C111-4C88-A238-7F637C8C0909@bleepsoft.com> <4570C577.3050107@gmail.com> <05A66A66-F9DD-4E4D-9D38-4ED62A095372@bleepsoft.com> Message-ID: <4570CA95.203@gmail.com> R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > On Dec 1, 2006, at 6:14 PM, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > >> R. Tyler Ballance wrote: >>> I really think the December meeting should be different, more social >>> than most meetings, but more importantly, with the addition of Beer. >>> >>> >>> I went ahead and threw up a page on the wiki: >>> http://satlug.org/wiki/index.php/Beermas >>> >>> Maybe just for december a change of pace? Besides BYOB get togethers >>> are >>> always enjoyable ;) >>> >>> >>> Thoughts? >> >> A good idea, but we can't do it. SAC won't allow any alcohol. If you >> can find a location for *after* the meeting, that would be nice. > > > I'm not saying at SAC, I'm saying we hold the "meeting" elsewhere and > celebrate Beermas :) > > > > R. Tyler Ballance: Lead Mac Developer at bleep. software > contact: tyler@bleepsoft.com | jabber: tyler@jabber.geekisp.com > > > Just post a map :-D :p Sam From nathan at gvtc.com Fri Dec 1 19:04:22 2006 From: nathan at gvtc.com (Nathan Oxhandler) Date: Fri Dec 1 19:04:29 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Memory is the second thing to go In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4570D116.5020501@gvtc.com> Duff DeWayne SA AFOSI/Det 401 wrote: > Not trying to be funny if this is more basic than you intended, but have you modified your /etc/fstab? > > --D? > > What I am trying to do, if you read my message, was to do what both Puppy and Knoppix allow you to do WITH OUT DOING ANY COMMAND LINE STUFF. Both allow you to find and mount a hard drives with out going to the command line to do anything, etc, mount, dev, or any other file. If Puppy can do it, where is the same capability in FC6? Nathan From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Fri Dec 1 20:48:38 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Fri Dec 1 20:48:47 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Memory is the second thing to go In-Reply-To: <4570D116.5020501@gvtc.com> References: <4570D116.5020501@gvtc.com> Message-ID: <4570E986.80908@w5omr.shacknet.nu> > What I am trying to do, if you read my message, was to do what both > Puppy and Knoppix allow you to do WITH OUT DOING ANY COMMAND LINE STUFF. > > Both allow you to find and mount a hard drives with out going to the > command line to do anything, etc, mount, dev, or any other file. If > Puppy can do it, where is the same capability in FC6? > not all distros are the same. they're all linux, alright - but not all flavors act the same ;-) From twistedpickles at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 23:55:13 2006 From: twistedpickles at gmail.com (twistedpickles) Date: Fri Dec 1 23:55:16 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Merry Beermas In-Reply-To: <4570CA95.203@gmail.com> References: <588F4B63-C111-4C88-A238-7F637C8C0909@bleepsoft.com> <4570C577.3050107@gmail.com> <05A66A66-F9DD-4E4D-9D38-4ED62A095372@bleepsoft.com> <4570CA95.203@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/1/06, Samuel Leon wrote: > > > R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > > > On Dec 1, 2006, at 6:14 PM, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > > > >> R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > >>> I really think the December meeting should be different, more social > >>> than most meetings, but more importantly, with the addition of Beer. > >>> > >>> > >>> I went ahead and threw up a page on the wiki: > >>> http://satlug.org/wiki/index.php/Beermas > >>> > >>> Maybe just for december a change of pace? Besides BYOB get togethers > >>> are > >>> always enjoyable ;) > >>> > >>> > >>> Thoughts? > >> > >> A good idea, but we can't do it. SAC won't allow any alcohol. If you > >> can find a location for *after* the meeting, that would be nice. > > > > > > I'm not saying at SAC, I'm saying we hold the "meeting" elsewhere and > > celebrate Beermas :) > > > > > > > > R. Tyler Ballance: Lead Mac Developer at bleep. software > > contact: tyler@bleepsoft.com | jabber: tyler@jabber.geekisp.com > > > > > > > > Just post a map :-D :p > > Sam > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > ;-D I'll supply the projector & screen if required. -- ::twistedPickles:: : From mk.spacecowboy at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 23:57:01 2006 From: mk.spacecowboy at gmail.com (Matt Kinsel) Date: Fri Dec 1 23:57:04 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Connecting to Wireless Networks In-Reply-To: <1164731678.1960.165.camel@spook.abacussg.com> References: <2d1185c80611261526v12acb4c6rc9c8b8557607ec20@mail.gmail.com> <8C8E00CA5C0663A-7C4-2AD@mblk-d46.sysops.aol.com> <2d1185c80611270604u1919268dm46142785617e125@mail.gmail.com> <1164646269.1960.19.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <1164731678.1960.165.camel@spook.abacussg.com> Message-ID: <2d1185c80612012157q49df7e1h9f0f4c0dbd32add@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for the help everybody. I've compiled everyone's instructions into the following procedure of commands below: ifconfig eth0 up (turns on card) iwlist eth0 scan (lists wireless networks in range) iwconfig eth0 essid "RouterName" key "BunchOfNumbersIfNeeded" mode managed (creates connection with desired access point) dhclient eth1 -r (drops old IP) dhclient eth1 -l (obtains new IP) iwconfig eth0 (verify connection with access point) dhclient -q eth0 & (don't know why, but it's required) Can y'all verify that I got these correct? I will try them out as soon as I get a chance. Thanks again. On 11/28/06, John Pappas wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 07:49 -0600, twistedpickles wrote: > > On 11/27/06, twistedpickles wrote: > > > I run FC5 on a dell D620 and as mentioned in earlier post I also use > > > iwlist eth1 scan # to can for wifi networks > > > iwconfig eth1 essid "WapName" key "If_Applies" > > > iwconfig eth1 #verify connection > > > dclient -q eth1 & #won't work without this > > > > correction on the above: > > > > iwlist eth1 scanning # scan for networks > > iwconfig eth1 essid "WapName" key "If_Applies" mode managed > > > > If I am changing from one wap to a different wap and where on had a > > key and now doesn't then: > > > > iwconfig eth1 essid "NewWap" key off mode managed > > dhclient eth1 -r # release IP > > dhclient eth1 -l # renew IP > > I thought that FC used a different DHCP client implementation. Thanks > for the info! > > John > > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > From luis at luisgarza.com Sat Dec 2 04:48:10 2006 From: luis at luisgarza.com (Luis Garza) Date: Sat Dec 2 04:47:32 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Upgrade Fedora core 3 to core 6 Message-ID: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> Ok. The day I feared has come. I have come to the conclusion that I really need to update my system. :-o I have been working with wordpress and their plugins and they have really been written for php5. Private and Public functions just do not work in php4 :-( Plus there are other thinks, like update X11, KDE, GNOME, apache2 and oh yeah support. I am spending the night downloading FC6 and backing up some of my directories to CD. I am feeling very hopefull since I went to church today. So I am asking for any lessons learned while upgrading. I look forward to your replies in the morning. Luis Garza luis@luisgarza.com From luis at luisgarza.com Sat Dec 2 05:59:31 2006 From: luis at luisgarza.com (Luis Garza) Date: Sat Dec 2 05:59:52 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] mysql3 to mysql4 database update Message-ID: <57800.127.0.0.1.1165060771.squirrel@localhost> I have stopped mysqld and backed up my /var/lib/mysql. Question: After I have updated my mysql server from mysql3 to mysql4, will my database be alright. Will I still be able to access them without problems? Is there a conversion process? Luis Garza www.luisgarza.com luis@luisgarza.com lrgarza2000@yahoo.com From demeler at biochem.uthscsa.edu Sat Dec 2 07:20:31 2006 From: demeler at biochem.uthscsa.edu (Borries Demeler) Date: Sat Dec 2 07:20:40 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] mysql3 to mysql4 database update In-Reply-To: <57800.127.0.0.1.1165060771.squirrel@localhost> Message-ID: <200612021320.kB2DKVlE016760@biochem.uthscsa.edu> > > I have stopped mysqld and backed up my /var/lib/mysql. > > Question: > > After I have updated my mysql server from mysql3 to mysql4, will my > database be alright. Will I still be able to access them without > problems? > > Is there a conversion process? > Luis, what type of db's are these? If it is innodb you need to rebuild the key associations as a separate step, other than that I am not aware of any problems. That's true if you backup/restore under 3 as well. -b. From rct at gherkin.frus.com Sat Dec 2 11:13:56 2006 From: rct at gherkin.frus.com (Bob Tracy) Date: Sat Dec 2 11:13:59 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Upgrade Fedora core 3 to core 6 In-Reply-To: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> "from Luis Garza at Dec 2, 2006 04:48:10 am" Message-ID: <20061202171356.E3290DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Luis Garza wrote: > I am spending the night downloading FC6 and backing up some of my directories > to CD. I am feeling very hopefull since I went to church today. > > So I am asking for any lessons learned while upgrading. Best recommendation I can give is to read the release notes and pay particular attention to the *strong* recommendation to do a "from scratch" install vs. upgrading. I'm pretty hard-headed and tend to believe that if a distro vendor offers an upgrade option, it should work :-). For the most part, it does. When the smoke clears, you'll have some semi-serious cleanup to do... (1) Your windowing environment of choice will pretty much be trashed. Fix is to delete all the dot files and directories under your home directory that have anything to do with GNOME and KDE -- let the window manager recreate them. Desktop customizations will, of course, be lost: you'll need to recreate them. (2) Many packages that were available in FC3 have no replacements that can be automatically determined by the FC6 upgrade process, i.e., they are obsolete or have otherwise fallen out of favor. After the upgrade, run "rpm -q -a --last" and save the output somewhere for reference: this generates a time-ordered list of RPMs on your system where the oldest RPMs will be at the end of the list. Anything with a date older than 2006 should probably be removed. If you need the functionality provided by a package that's a candidate for removal, try to find a modern replacement. One you'll probably run into quickly is the RPM package that provides alternative desktop themes: if you had the FC3 version loaded, it didn't get upgraded and the old one won't work due to changes in where GNOME expects to find things. Bottom line: if you're adventurous AND feel comfortable doing things from the command line, do the upgrade -- you won't lose any critical data, and you'll have quite the learning experience. On the other hand, if you don't crave that kind of excitement in your life, save those configuration items and other critical data you can't live without, then do a "from scratch" install. If you elect the "from scratch" approach and have the luxury of doing so, put it on a different machine and then you won't have to worry about losing *anything*. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Tracy WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org rct@frus.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mk.spacecowboy at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 11:42:28 2006 From: mk.spacecowboy at gmail.com (Matt Kinsel) Date: Sat Dec 2 11:42:31 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Upgrade Fedora core 3 to core 6 In-Reply-To: <20061202171356.E3290DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> References: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> <20061202171356.E3290DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: <2d1185c80612020942n717622f2r621bf1e0a3e169a9@mail.gmail.com> I'm getting ready to install FC6 on a Dell laptop currently running Windowz ME. I've got the files I need off of it, and I wish to completely wipe off the hard drive and install FC6. Does anyone have any recommended programs/methods for clearing off the drive (OS too)? I've never erased a hard drive before or installed Linux, so any tips/warnings would be much appreciated. On 12/2/06, Bob Tracy wrote: > > Luis Garza wrote: > > I am spending the night downloading FC6 and backing up some of my > directories > > to CD. I am feeling very hopefull since I went to church today. > > > > So I am asking for any lessons learned while upgrading. > > Best recommendation I can give is to read the release notes and pay > particular attention to the *strong* recommendation to do a "from scratch" > install vs. upgrading. I'm pretty hard-headed and tend to believe that if > a distro vendor offers an upgrade option, it should work :-). For the > most part, it does. When the smoke clears, you'll have some semi-serious > cleanup to do... > > (1) Your windowing environment of choice will pretty much be trashed. > Fix is to delete all the dot files and directories under your home > directory that have anything to do with GNOME and KDE -- let the > window manager recreate them. Desktop customizations will, of > course, be lost: you'll need to recreate them. > > (2) Many packages that were available in FC3 have no replacements that > can be automatically determined by the FC6 upgrade process, i.e., > they are obsolete or have otherwise fallen out of favor. After > the upgrade, run "rpm -q -a --last" and save the output somewhere > for reference: this generates a time-ordered list of RPMs on your > system where the oldest RPMs will be at the end of the list. > Anything with a date older than 2006 should probably be removed. > If you need the functionality provided by a package that's a > candidate for removal, try to find a modern replacement. One you'll > probably run into quickly is the RPM package that provides alternative > desktop themes: if you had the FC3 version loaded, it didn't get > upgraded and the old one won't work due to changes in where GNOME > expects to find things. > > Bottom line: if you're adventurous AND feel comfortable doing things > from the command line, do the upgrade -- you won't lose any critical > data, and you'll have quite the learning experience. On the other hand, > if you don't crave that kind of excitement in your life, save those > configuration items and other critical data you can't live without, > then do a "from scratch" install. If you elect the "from scratch" > approach and have the luxury of doing so, put it on a different machine > and then you won't have to worry about losing *anything*. > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bob Tracy WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org > rct@frus.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > From dmyhand at cox-internet.com Sat Dec 2 12:05:46 2006 From: dmyhand at cox-internet.com (Dennis Myhand) Date: Sat Dec 2 12:06:29 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Upgrade Fedora core 3 to core 6 In-Reply-To: <2d1185c80612020942n717622f2r621bf1e0a3e169a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> <20061202171356.E3290DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> <2d1185c80612020942n717622f2r621bf1e0a3e169a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4571C07A.6070007@cox-internet.com> Matt Kinsel wrote: > I'm getting ready to install FC6 on a Dell laptop currently running Windowz > ME. I've got the files I need off of it, and I wish to completely wipe off > the hard drive and install FC6. Does anyone have any recommended > programs/methods for clearing off the drive (OS too)? I've never erased a > hard drive before or installed Linux, so any tips/warnings would be much > appreciated. > > On 12/2/06, Bob Tracy wrote: >> >> Luis Garza wrote: >> > I am spending the night downloading FC6 and backing up some of my >> directories >> > to CD. I am feeling very hopefull since I went to church today. >> > >> > So I am asking for any lessons learned while upgrading. >> >> Best recommendation I can give is to read the release notes and pay >> particular attention to the *strong* recommendation to do a "from >> scratch" >> install vs. upgrading. I'm pretty hard-headed and tend to believe >> that if >> a distro vendor offers an upgrade option, it should work :-). For the >> most part, it does. When the smoke clears, you'll have some semi-serious >> cleanup to do... >> >> (1) Your windowing environment of choice will pretty much be trashed. >> Fix is to delete all the dot files and directories under your home >> directory that have anything to do with GNOME and KDE -- let the >> window manager recreate them. Desktop customizations will, of >> course, be lost: you'll need to recreate them. >> >> (2) Many packages that were available in FC3 have no replacements that >> can be automatically determined by the FC6 upgrade process, i.e., >> they are obsolete or have otherwise fallen out of favor. After >> the upgrade, run "rpm -q -a --last" and save the output somewhere >> for reference: this generates a time-ordered list of RPMs on your >> system where the oldest RPMs will be at the end of the list. >> Anything with a date older than 2006 should probably be removed. >> If you need the functionality provided by a package that's a >> candidate for removal, try to find a modern replacement. One you'll >> probably run into quickly is the RPM package that provides >> alternative >> desktop themes: if you had the FC3 version loaded, it didn't get >> upgraded and the old one won't work due to changes in where GNOME >> expects to find things. >> >> Bottom line: if you're adventurous AND feel comfortable doing things >> from the command line, do the upgrade -- you won't lose any critical >> data, and you'll have quite the learning experience. On the other hand, >> if you don't crave that kind of excitement in your life, save those >> configuration items and other critical data you can't live without, >> then do a "from scratch" install. If you elect the "from scratch" >> approach and have the luxury of doing so, put it on a different machine >> and then you won't have to worry about losing *anything*. >> >> -- >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Bob Tracy WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org >> rct@frus.com >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> SATLUG mailing list >> SATLUG@satlug.org >> http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe >> Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) >> The Fedora disk partitioning tool will do all you need when it comes to taking out Bill's bloat. -- Three o'clock in the afternoon is always just a little too late or a little too early for anything you want to do. -- Jean-Paul Sartre From scs at worldlinkisp.com Sat Dec 2 12:20:52 2006 From: scs at worldlinkisp.com (scs@worldlinkisp.com) Date: Sat Dec 2 12:20:58 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: Wiping the C: Drive and Installing FC 6 Message-ID: Quick and easy just boot up in DOS and get the prompt (A:\>_) and then do: A:\>_ < format C: > you will be queried " are you sure " < yes > ... still back and watch, when done (formating) naming or renaming the drive is your choice. Now CD\C: and do < fdisk , option 4 > and verify your partition(s), then do < ESC > < ESC >. Assuming this isn't dual boot,you're good to go with your FC 6 install. Or as Chris Le Deax used to say " Let I'r Whril ." >------- Original Message ------- >From : Matt Kinsel[mailto:mk.spacecowboy@gmail.com] >I'm getting ready to install FC6 on a Dell laptop currently running Windowz ME. I've got the files I need off of it, and I wish to completely wipe off the hard drive and install FC6. Does anyone have any recommended programs/methods for clearing off the drive (OS too)? I've never erased a hard drive before or installed Linux, so any tips/warnings would be much appreciated. From mk.spacecowboy at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 12:34:00 2006 From: mk.spacecowboy at gmail.com (Matt Kinsel) Date: Sat Dec 2 12:34:03 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: Wiping the C: Drive and Installing FC 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d1185c80612021034j42ea0e85hd7dfe1f4fddfd3e8@mail.gmail.com> You're correct, I do not wish to dual boot. I'll try what you told me, thanks! On 12/2/06, scs@worldlinkisp.com wrote: > > Quick and easy just boot up in DOS and get the prompt > (A:\>_) and then do: A:\>_ < format C: > > you will be queried " are you sure " < yes > ... > still back and watch, when done (formating) naming or > renaming the drive is your choice. > > Now CD\C: and do < fdisk , option 4 > and verify > your partition(s), then do < ESC > < ESC >. > > Assuming this isn't dual boot,you're good to go with > your FC 6 install. > > Or as Chris Le Deax used to say " Let I'r Whril ." > > > > >------- Original Message ------- > >From : Matt Kinsel[mailto:mk.spacecowboy@gmail.com] > > >I'm getting ready to install FC6 on a Dell laptop > currently running Windowz > ME. I've got the files I need off of it, and I wish > to completely wipe off > the hard drive and install FC6. Does anyone have any > recommended > programs/methods for clearing off the drive (OS too)? > I've never erased a > hard drive before or installed Linux, so any > tips/warnings would be much > appreciated. > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > From tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org Sat Dec 2 13:03:54 2006 From: tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org (tweeks) Date: Sat Dec 2 13:03:59 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Upgrade Fedora core 3 to core 6 In-Reply-To: <2d1185c80612020942n717622f2r621bf1e0a3e169a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> <20061202171356.E3290DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> <2d1185c80612020942n717622f2r621bf1e0a3e169a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200612021303.54619.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> On Saturday 02 December 2006 11:42, Matt Kinsel wrote: > I'm getting ready to install FC6 on a Dell laptop currently running Windowz > ME. I've got the files I need off of it, and I wish to completely wipe off > the hard drive and install FC6. Does anyone have any recommended > programs/methods for clearing off the drive (OS too)? I've never erased a > hard drive before or installed Linux, so any tips/warnings would be much > appreciated. The default FC6 install option will "Remove all Linux Partitions" only by default. To have it wipe out windows, you need to direct it to "Remove All Partitions". See here: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/install-guide/fc6/en/ch-disk-partitioning.html Tweeks From tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org Sat Dec 2 14:28:36 2006 From: tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org (tweeks) Date: Sat Dec 2 14:28:38 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Upgrade Fedora core 3 to core 6 In-Reply-To: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> References: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> Message-ID: <200612021428.36202.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> On Saturday 02 December 2006 04:48, Luis Garza wrote: [...] > > So I am asking for any lessons learned while upgrading. Many of us here have done this many times Luis... And Tthere are a dozen different ways to do it. Here's a the "manual method" that I recently used in a laptop upgrade: Example: You have a desktop with some mysql database content and /etc based config files that you want to save, along with your home dir content. 1) Change to runlevel one: # init 1 2) Place any important system files in a common backup location (I use /home): # cp -a {/etc,/var/lib/mysql} /home/ 3) Tar up /home # tar czvf /tmp/BACKUP-$(date +%Y-%m-%d).tgz 4) copy the tar ball off to a different system (scp, ftp, dvd, tape, etc) 5) Reinstall system new OS... boot the system, but don't run any of your regular desktop apps yet. 6) copy backup tarball back onto /home/BACKUP and untar it: # mkdir -p /home/BACKUP ; cp BACKUP-2006-12-02.tgz /home/BACKUP/ # cd /home/BACKUP/ ; tar xzvf BACKUP-2006-12-02.tgz Put the tarball away somewhere safe in case you need it later: # mv /home/BACKUP-2006-12-02.tgz /root 7) Raw data dirs such as MyDocs, Mp3s, etc can simply be copied back over into place into your new user's home dirs: # cp -a /home/RESTORE/home/user1/{MyDocs,Mp3s,Mail} /home/user1/ NOTE: Don't just blindly copy over hidden user config files and dirs like .kde and .gnome, as there will be many new features of these configs that you will not want to bring with you into the new KDE/Gnome environment. However, if you fine that something doesn't work like it used to (e.g. Your Kmail filters and accounts are all lost), then research and copy each over individually. For example, for Kmail filters and accounts, they are all kept in .kde/share/config/kmailrc, which MAY be copied over after you've determined you need it and that you won't mess up your new environment. NOTE: You probably set up your first/only around install time. But if you did not, or you have additional users, jump ahead and step12 and then back here. 8) You can copy over some of your "dot files" (usually) such as .ssh, .mozilla, .gaim, .evolution, etc. Some apps like ssh shouldn't matter.. other apps like evolution might detect old config files and offer to upgrade them (if needed)... However, be sure to to pay attention to potential conflicts such as mozilla plugins and the like. 9) After moving home user content back into place, verify that the UID GID's still match. This can be fixed (if they don't match) like this: # chown -R user1:user1 /home/user1 10) Copy your database back into place: # cp -a /home/BACKUP/mysql/* /var/lib/mysql NOTE: There are diffs between major versions of MySQL and other DB version table types. You need to look into best handle these differences for you DB or application. 11) Copy important config files back into place, allowing for backups to be made of all original files: # cp -ab /home/BACKUP/etc/hosts /etc/hosts # cp -ab /home/BACKUP/etc/sysconfig/iptables /etc/sysconfig/ WARNING: Never just blindly copy old key daemon config files over the new ones (such as /etc/my.cnf, httpd.conf, vsftpd.conf, sendmail.{cf,mc}, etc. New daemons mean new/different features. Plopping an old config file over top a newer one can cause big problems. Individual settings from old config files need to be researched and moved over to the new files line by line. 12) Things like users and groups should usually be recreated on the new system instead of just being moved over. If you're upgrading between different distros or even UN*Xes... their settings and internal conventions may vary quite a bit. 13) Have your users log in and start up their applications and check to verify that everything is operating correctly. If everything's ok.. then clean up the untarred backup files in /home, but keep the tar backup file on the system for a few months just in case. wow.. I didn't intend to write all of this.. but I've been meaning to jot a lot of this down in note form for a while now. And now having done so.. I'm sure that others will now add toit , change and refine it. Sounds like a good candidate for the WiKi.. :) Tweeks From travis at subspacefield.org Sat Dec 2 14:39:00 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Sat Dec 2 14:39:01 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] AoE questions In-Reply-To: <20061121010410.GA18806@spoonix.com> References: <20061119023436.GA31639@spoonix.com> <1163996123.26991.126.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <20061120070425.GA11677@spoonix.com> <1164044711.26991.230.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <20061121010410.GA18806@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <20061202203900.GD8092@nexus.subspacefield.org> On Mon, Nov 20, 2006 at 07:04:10PM -0600, K. Spoon wrote: > So, what I meant, was: > > * setup server with four 500GB disks I'm doing that now. > * setup a RAID 10 across them (hda-R1-hdb)-R0-(hdc-R1-hdd) Is there any reason to do 1+0 instead of 0+1? -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From luis at luisgarza.com Sat Dec 2 16:29:12 2006 From: luis at luisgarza.com (Luis Garza) Date: Sat Dec 2 16:29:15 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Upgrade Fedora core 3 to core 6 In-Reply-To: <200612021428.36202.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> References: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> <200612021428.36202.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> Message-ID: <37007.192.168.2.1.1165098552.squirrel@luisgarza.com> On Sat, December 2, 2006 2:28 pm, tweeks wrote: > On Saturday 02 December 2006 04:48, Luis Garza wrote: > [...] >> >> So I am asking for any lessons learned while upgrading. > > Many of us here have done this many times Luis... And Tthere are a dozen > different ways to do it. Here's a the "manual method" that I recently > used > in a laptop upgrade: > > Example: You have a desktop with some mysql database content and /etc > based > config files that you want to save, along with your home dir content. > [...] > 6) copy backup tarball back onto /home/BACKUP and untar it: > # mkdir -p /home/BACKUP ; cp BACKUP-2006-12-02.tgz /home/BACKUP/ > # cd /home/BACKUP/ ; tar xzvf BACKUP-2006-12-02.tgz > [...] OK I rsync-ed the /root /etc /var /home directories to another machine. I know that I got too much but its just a backup. [...] > you fine that something doesn't work like it used to (e.g. Your Kmail > filters > and accounts are all lost), then research and copy each over individually. > For example, for Kmail filters and accounts, they are all kept > in .kde/share/config/kmailrc, which MAY be copied over after you've > determined you need it and that you won't mess up your new environment. I use squirrelmail for my mail reader but I have alot of plugins. So now I have to backup the /usr/share/squirrelmail/plugins directory. I am purty sure that they will work with the latest version of squirrelmail. So I think that I can restore those. I also need to make sure that I have every users /home/[user]/mail directory. It appears that is where squirrelmail creates the users' subfolders. That will need to be restored. I am also thinking about backing up and restoring my spamassasin .cf files in the /usr/share/spamassassin directory. Also each users' /home/[user]/.spamassasin directory will need to be backed upped and restored. It contains the users' whitelist and user_perfs. Funny, I just noticed that I have not installed clamav - sorry windows users. It appears that I need to backup each users' /home/[user]/* regular files and directories minus the Desktop. I will let the system recreate that. Just restoring the /home/[user]/* files should exclude the .files and .directories. I may want to restore the user's bashrc files; /home/[user]/.[a-zA-Z]*bash* I am thinking about NOT restoring the samba /usr/share/system-config-samba directory and just try to recreate the share by just restoring the /etc/samba directory. Any takers on why the /usr/share/system-config-samba directory has some python files that get updated? As for sendmail, I think that I need to o restore /etc/mail/access file. I will let it recreate the access.db file. o restore /etc/mail/auth/client-info file. o I will need to make sure that FEATURE(`authinfo',`hash /etc/mail/auth/client-info')dnl makemap hash client-info < client-info define(`confAUTH_MECHANISMS', `EXTERNAL GSSAPI DIGEST-MD5 CRAM-MD5 LOGIN PLAIN')dnl define(`SMART_HOST',`SMTP.sbcglobal.yahoo.com') MASQUERADE_DOMAIN(luisgarza.com)dnl will be in the new sendmail.mc file. o restore /etc/mail/spamassasin/local.cf file Any additional advice on sendmail would be greatly appreciated!!! As for mailman, I think that I need to o restore the /etc/aliases file o restore the /var/lib/mailman directory o restore the /etc/cron.d/mailman file As for the mrtg, I think that I need to o restore the /etc/snmp/snmpd.conf file o restore the /etc/cron.d/mrtg file As for my domains, I think that I need to o restore /root/bin/zone* files o check out http://ipcheck.sourceforge.net/ o restore /etc/cron.daily/zoneedit As for my apache2, I think that I need to o restore /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf file o restore /etc/httpd/conf.d/mrtg file o restore /etc/httpd/conf.d/awstats file o restore /etc/httpd/conf.d/webalizer file As for my awstats, I think that I need to o restore /var/lib/awstats directory o restore /etc/awstats directory o restore /etc/cron.hourly/awstats As for my webalizer, I think that I need to o restore /var/lib/webalizer directory o restore /etc/webalizer file Selectively restore lines from the o /etc/password, o /etc/shadow o /etc/group files o /etc/cron.allow o /var/spool/cron/root o /etc/hosts ( I have alot of ad site pointing to 127.0.0.1 ) OK ... Thats what I got so far. I still need to look at the plugins for firefox, thunderbird, wordpress ... I am going to o Take a break o Take a shot of wiskey o And go to church and light a candle I will add more as I think of it. PLEASE feel free to comment and remind me of other thinks that I need to restore, reconfigure, or just plan do from scratch. PS: Dr. Dubbs and those who moved the satlug server to Rackspace ... WOW > > NOTE: You probably set up your first/only around install time. But if you > did > not, or you have additional users, jump ahead and step12 and then back > here. > > 8) You can copy over some of your "dot files" (usually) such > as .ssh, .mozilla, .gaim, .evolution, etc. Some apps like ssh shouldn't > matter.. other apps like evolution might detect old config files and offer > to > upgrade them (if needed)... However, be sure to to pay attention to > potential > conflicts such as mozilla plugins and the like. > > 9) After moving home user content back into place, verify that the UID > GID's > still match. This can be fixed (if they don't match) like this: > # chown -R user1:user1 /home/user1 > > 10) Copy your database back into place: > # cp -a /home/BACKUP/mysql/* /var/lib/mysql > > NOTE: There are diffs between major versions of MySQL and other DB version > table types. You need to look into best handle these differences for you > DB > or application. > > 11) Copy important config files back into place, allowing for backups to > be > made of all original files: > # cp -ab /home/BACKUP/etc/hosts /etc/hosts > # cp -ab /home/BACKUP/etc/sysconfig/iptables /etc/sysconfig/ > > WARNING: Never just blindly copy old key daemon config files over the new > ones > (such as /etc/my.cnf, httpd.conf, vsftpd.conf, sendmail.{cf,mc}, etc. New > daemons mean new/different features. Plopping an old config file over top > a > newer one can cause big problems. Individual settings from old config > files > need to be researched and moved over to the new files line by line. > > 12) Things like users and groups should usually be recreated on the new > system > instead of just being moved over. If you're upgrading between different > distros or even UN*Xes... their settings and internal conventions may vary > quite a bit. > > 13) Have your users log in and start up their applications and check to > verify > that everything is operating correctly. If everything's ok.. then clean > up > the untarred backup files in /home, but keep the tar backup file on the > system for a few months just in case. > > > wow.. I didn't intend to write all of this.. but I've been meaning to jot > a > lot of this down in note form for a while now. And now having done so.. > I'm > sure that others will now add toit , change and refine it. > Sounds like a good candidate for the WiKi.. :) > > Tweeks > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > Luis Garza www.luisgarza.com luis@luisgarza.com lrgarza2000@yahoo.com From tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org Sat Dec 2 17:07:51 2006 From: tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org (tweeks) Date: Sat Dec 2 17:08:03 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Upgrade Fedora core 3 to core 6 In-Reply-To: <37007.192.168.2.1.1165098552.squirrel@luisgarza.com> References: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> <200612021428.36202.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> <37007.192.168.2.1.1165098552.squirrel@luisgarza.com> Message-ID: <200612021707.51484.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> On Saturday 02 December 2006 16:29, Luis Garza wrote: > I use squirrelmail for my mail reader but I have alot of plugins. So now > I have to backup the /usr/share/squirrelmail/plugins directory. I am > purty sure that they will work with the latest version of squirrelmail. > So I think that I can restore those. Ahh.. you're doing a server then.. not a Desktop? > I am also thinking about backing up and restoring my spamassasin .cf files > in the /usr/share/spamassassin directory. Get your customized configs.. but I would stick to using valid RPMs for such packaged files. > It appears that I need to backup each users' /home/[user]/* regular files > and directories minus the Desktop. Bingo. I was going to mention that... but thought you would figure it out. ;) > /etc/samba directory. Any takers on why the > /usr/share/system-config-samba directory has some python files that get > updated? Red hat cruft... you could actually ditch them and just edit the regular samba config files. > Any additional advice on sendmail would be greatly appreciated!!! Sounds like you're doing sendmail the right way.. leave the main mc file in place. Add the lines you need and rebuild the cf. > As for mailman, I think that I need to > o restore the /etc/aliases file > o restore the /var/lib/mailman directory > o restore the /etc/cron.d/mailman file That last one will be populated by the mailman rpm. > As for my domains, I think that I need to > o restore /root/bin/zone* files > o check out http://ipcheck.sourceforge.net/ > o restore /etc/cron.daily/zoneedit This is definitely not a desktop/laptop system. :) > As for my apache2, I think that I need to > o restore /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf file > o restore /etc/httpd/conf.d/mrtg file > o restore /etc/httpd/conf.d/awstats file > o restore /etc/httpd/conf.d/webalizer file No.. Like I said.. that Apache conf file (and the others) will be put in place by the packages you install via RPM. All you will want to copy into the httpd.conf file in the "Section 3" vhosts area. > As for my awstats, I think that I need to > o restore /var/lib/awstats directory > o restore /etc/awstats directory > o restore /etc/cron.hourly/awstats Again.. don't move cron.d/ files around. If in doubt.. see who owns a file before moving it: # rpm -qf /etc/cron.d/sysstat sysstat-4.0.3-2 You don't want to run around replacing such packages on your own unless you know exactly what you're doing. If you have customized changes... push your changes in the new daemon's existing config files. Sounds like you're on a roll.. keep at it.. ;) Tweeks p.s. Oh.. did I mention.. The first step before anything else is to always back up your system. ;) From yatinhat at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 20:13:28 2006 From: yatinhat at yahoo.com (Mary Yatti) Date: Sat Dec 2 20:13:33 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: Merry Beermas In-Reply-To: <20061202055531.6C50743E5D7@satlug.org> Message-ID: <805703.97704.qm@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> I read the posts here daily..but been too busy to post but this one caught my attention. Has anyone tried coffee winecoolers? They are awesome if you are trying to relax while programming. I'm not much of a beer person, but like Guinness or dark ale sometimes. I could go for some hot coffee w/irish bailey cream or better yet irish bailey on the rocks. Merry Beermas to all!! Mary From tyler at bleepsoft.com Sat Dec 2 20:25:23 2006 From: tyler at bleepsoft.com (R. Tyler Ballance) Date: Sat Dec 2 20:25:27 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: Merry Beermas In-Reply-To: <805703.97704.qm@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> References: <805703.97704.qm@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1CE7FE7C-C874-4881-BC81-57E1F7AEE998@bleepsoft.com> On Dec 2, 2006, at 8:13 PM, Mary Yatti wrote: > I could go for some hot coffee w/irish bailey cream or > better yet irish bailey on the rocks. Sounds good to me :) If you guys would be up for making the meeting on the 13th a Beermas celebration, on Monday and tuesday when i'm closer to downtown (i.e. inside 410) I'll walk some pavement and find a spot for us to hang out and have some drinks in celebration of Tux and friends :) Cheers R. Tyler Ballance: Lead Mac Developer at bleep. software contact: tyler@bleepsoft.com | jabber: tyler@jabber.geekisp.com From travis at subspacefield.org Sat Dec 2 22:42:16 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Sat Dec 2 22:42:21 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Mutt q: how to re-enable "to_chars" Message-ID: <20061203044216.GA24992@nexus.subspacefield.org> Hey any mutt fans, Somehow my mutt configuration stopped showing the status characters that show me an email was addressed to me specifically. I'm reading the entire manual and so far haven't found what may be toggled off. It shows old messages and new as new, but not anything in to_chars. Any ideas? -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Sun Dec 3 13:18:18 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Sun Dec 3 13:18:20 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] buying a motherboard with cpu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061203191818.GA7696@nexus.subspacefield.org> On Wed, Nov 22, 2006 at 03:26:05PM -0600, Chris Lemire wrote: > I am doing research on motherboards. Maybe there is a new > technology or something I do not know about or something I should wait for. > Do I need to know about the different socket > numbers? Not really. I get by without knowing... > How well does Linux support dual core, quad core, and other new > technologies? Just fine, they're SMP basically, so it shouldn't be a problem. > 1. Linux compatibility, it must run well and supported under Linux. ASUS, Foxconn, Gigabyte > 2. 4 or more sata2 connectors would be good. 2 does not seem like > much. I already have a sata2 hard drive with cables and converter for the > power wire. I haven't found one with native SATA that has a chipset supported by Linux. My fileserver has this: http://www.usb-ware.com/4-port-sata-ii-raid-controller.htm Works great and cheap. > 3. 64 bit and dual core or quad core I don't think Intel has a viable 64-bit... there's one that _emulates_ a 64-bit, but I think you should go with AMD. > 6. A built on video card is not required, but if it does have one, it > should be 16x PCI-e, Nvidia, and a big improvement from the card I have > now On-board always sucks, to my knowledge. You can pick up a good nVidia-based card for pretty cheap, at least for AGP... PCI-e I don't know about. > 8. It should have support for plenty of memory. Right now 2 gigabytes > is enough, but I probably will not be buying another one for a while, and > I > want it to last me when programs and operating systems require more. Even > though I won't be using Microsoft, I need support for a lot of memory. Well on 32-bit you're limited to 4GB. The Asus 64-bit board I saw at Fry's over Turkey day supported up to 6GB. > 9. Reverse compatibility with DDR1 and also taking DDR2 is needed. I > probably will not have enough money left over to buy a lot of DDR2 memory > right away, and I have 768 mb of DDR right now. Sell it, get DDR2... if performance is such a factor... memory is the bottleneck. > 10. It should include a Gigabit LAN card to have when everyone goes to > it or something I can plug in a Gigabit LAN card to in the future. I got some Rosewill gig NICs from newegg for like < $25, and they work great, as long as the system isn't too old. I put one in my Dual Xeon P3 550MHz box, and it wouldn't boot. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From demeler at biochem.uthscsa.edu Sun Dec 3 14:19:55 2006 From: demeler at biochem.uthscsa.edu (Borries Demeler) Date: Sun Dec 3 14:20:07 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] buying a motherboard with cpu In-Reply-To: <20061203191818.GA7696@nexus.subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <200612032019.kB3KJtf2021730@biochem.uthscsa.edu> > > 3. 64 bit and dual core or quad core > > I don't think Intel has a viable 64-bit... there's one that _emulates_ > a 64-bit, but I think you should go with AMD. I am not sure how important performance is for you, but here is some anecdotal evidence: A colleague just told me how he gets 150% faster performance on the multicore AMD chipset compared to the latest Intel multicore for his single precision floating point code. I am unfamiliar with the various chip designs and can't comment on the details, but I suspect that performance is dependent on the type of code you are running, i.e., is it double or single precision, floating point, integer math, in-cache, memory-bound, cpu-bound, etc. - lots of questions. I recommend benchmarking your code before settling on an architecture. -Borries From e2eiod at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 15:05:40 2006 From: e2eiod at gmail.com (Robert Pearson) Date: Sun Dec 3 15:05:51 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] buying a motherboard with cpu In-Reply-To: <20061203191818.GA7696@nexus.subspacefield.org> References: <20061203191818.GA7696@nexus.subspacefield.org> Message-ID: On 12/3/06, Travis H. wrote: > On Wed, Nov 22, 2006 at 03:26:05PM -0600, Chris Lemire wrote: > > I am doing research on motherboards. Maybe there is a new > > technology or something I do not know about or something I should wait for. > > Do I need to know about the different socket > > numbers? > > Not really. I get by without knowing... > > > How well does Linux support dual core, quad core, and other new > > technologies? > > Just fine, they're SMP basically, so it shouldn't be a problem. > > > 1. Linux compatibility, it must run well and supported under Linux. > > ASUS, Foxconn, Gigabyte > > > 2. 4 or more sata2 connectors would be good. 2 does not seem like > > much. I already have a sata2 hard drive with cables and converter for the > > power wire. > > I haven't found one with native SATA that has a chipset supported by Linux. Are you talking about motherboards here? Or controller cards? > My fileserver has this: > http://www.usb-ware.com/4-port-sata-ii-raid-controller.htm > > Works great and cheap. I looked at the specs for this at the URL given and it shows no support for Linux. Were you able to verify your SATA II card would work with Linux before purchase? Did it just plug and play with Linux? Or did you find some drivers? > ...[snip]... From skolars at cis.sac.accd.edu Sun Dec 3 16:03:51 2006 From: skolars at cis.sac.accd.edu (skolars) Date: Sun Dec 3 16:04:00 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer Message-ID: <457349C7.4030308@cis.sac.accd.edu> Thought you would enjoy this one: http://cis.sac.accd.edu/~skolars/rand.jpg . It is from a 1954 Popular Mechanics Magazine. Steve From skolars at cis.sac.accd.edu Sun Dec 3 16:07:01 2006 From: skolars at cis.sac.accd.edu (skolars) Date: Sun Dec 3 16:07:02 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer Message-ID: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> Thought you would like this on: http://cis.sac.accd.edu/~skolars/rand.jpg . It is from a 1954 Popular Mechanics Magazine. Steve From demeler at biochem.uthscsa.edu Sun Dec 3 16:13:06 2006 From: demeler at biochem.uthscsa.edu (Borries Demeler) Date: Sun Dec 3 16:13:20 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> Message-ID: <200612032213.kB3MD6Bw013866@biochem.uthscsa.edu> THis is great, Steve :-) This will definitely go into my next presentation somewhere. I just love the part about "With teletype and the FORTRAN language, the computer will be easy to use." -b. > > Thought you would like this on: > http://cis.sac.accd.edu/~skolars/rand.jpg > . It is from a 1954 > Popular Mechanics Magazine. > > Steve > > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Sun Dec 3 16:33:58 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Sun Dec 3 16:34:09 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: Merry Beermas In-Reply-To: <805703.97704.qm@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> References: <805703.97704.qm@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <457350D6.8090008@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Mary Yatti wrote: > I read the posts here daily..but been too busy to post > but this one caught my attention. > > Has anyone tried coffee winecoolers? They are awesome > if you are trying to relax while programming. > > I'm not much of a beer person, but like Guinness or > dark ale sometimes. > > I could go for some hot coffee w/irish bailey cream or > better yet irish bailey on the rocks. > > Merry Beermas to all!! > Bailey's for me, as well. But, I won't be in town on the 13th/14th. Sorry, y'all. Have fun. -- Christmas Greetings, y'all From good_bye300 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 3 16:53:23 2006 From: good_bye300 at yahoo.com (Chris Lemire) Date: Sun Dec 3 16:53:24 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <457349C7.4030308@cis.sac.accd.edu> Message-ID: <20061203225323.34495.qmail@web38114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> COOL, Where can I get one? How do I use that steering wheel? joking skolars wrote: Thought you would enjoy this one: http://cis.sac.accd.edu/~skolars/rand.jpg . It is from a 1954 Popular Mechanics Magazine. Steve -- _______________________________________________ SATLUG mailing list SATLUG@satlug.org http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) --------------------------------- Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 16:55:53 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Sun Dec 3 16:56:01 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <457349C7.4030308@cis.sac.accd.edu> References: <457349C7.4030308@cis.sac.accd.edu> Message-ID: <457355F9.7030403@gmail.com> skolars wrote: > Thought you would enjoy this one: > http://cis.sac.accd.edu/~skolars/rand.jpg > . It is from a 1954 > Popular Mechanics Magazine. Wow. They are really good. It looks just like mine... -- Bruce From erichaugen at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 19:57:08 2006 From: erichaugen at gmail.com (Eric Haugen) Date: Sun Dec 3 19:57:10 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <457349C7.4030308@cis.sac.accd.edu> References: <457349C7.4030308@cis.sac.accd.edu> Message-ID: <674b98ac0612031757s10384f91la39794a50281eb6c@mail.gmail.com> Hoax http://www.digibarn.com/collections/jokes/hoaxes/index.html - Eric On 12/3/06, skolars wrote: > > Thought you would enjoy this one: > http://cis.sac.accd.edu/~skolars/rand.jpg > . It is from a 1954 > Popular Mechanics Magazine. > > Steve > > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- Give a man fire and he is warm for the day. Set him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life. From skolars at cis.sac.accd.edu Sun Dec 3 21:53:37 2006 From: skolars at cis.sac.accd.edu (skolars) Date: Sun Dec 3 21:53:44 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <674b98ac0612031757s10384f91la39794a50281eb6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <457349C7.4030308@cis.sac.accd.edu> <674b98ac0612031757s10384f91la39794a50281eb6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45739BC1.3070601@cis.sac.accd.edu> Eric Haugen wrote: > Hoax > > http://www.digibarn.com/collections/jokes/hoaxes/index.html > > - Eric Bummer, it sure looks good though. Steve > > > On 12/3/06, skolars wrote: >> >> Thought you would enjoy this one: >> http://cis.sac.accd.edu/~skolars/rand.jpg >> . It is from a 1954 >> Popular Mechanics Magazine. >> >> Steve >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> SATLUG mailing list >> SATLUG@satlug.org >> http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe >> Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) >> > > > From mitchthompson at satx.rr.com Sun Dec 3 21:56:34 2006 From: mitchthompson at satx.rr.com (Mitch Thompson) Date: Sun Dec 3 21:56:15 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> Message-ID: <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> skolars wrote: > Thought you would like this on: > http://cis.sac.accd.edu/~skolars/rand.jpg > . It is from a 1954 > Popular Mechanics Magazine. > > Steve > Y'know, I've seen that picture on the web half a dozen times or more and, while I can understand the teletype (I've used those in the Air Force), and all the guages, and the monitor is cool, I have NEVER been able to understand the purpose of the steering wheel, or valve handle, or whatever that thing is, on a "computer". From mitchthompson at satx.rr.com Sun Dec 3 21:59:26 2006 From: mitchthompson at satx.rr.com (Mitch Thompson) Date: Sun Dec 3 21:59:03 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <674b98ac0612031757s10384f91la39794a50281eb6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <457349C7.4030308@cis.sac.accd.edu> <674b98ac0612031757s10384f91la39794a50281eb6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45739D1E.5090605@satx.rr.com> Eric Haugen wrote: > Hoax > > http://www.digibarn.com/collections/jokes/hoaxes/index.html > > - Eric > > > On 12/3/06, skolars wrote: >> >> Thought you would enjoy this one: >> http://cis.sac.accd.edu/~skolars/rand.jpg >> . It is from a 1954 >> Popular Mechanics Magazine. >> >> Steve >> Thanks for pointing this out. It was a pretty good hoax! From kell at spoonix.com Sun Dec 3 23:02:20 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Sun Dec 3 23:02:18 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] AoE questions In-Reply-To: <20061202203900.GD8092@nexus.subspacefield.org> References: <20061119023436.GA31639@spoonix.com> <1163996123.26991.126.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <20061120070425.GA11677@spoonix.com> <1164044711.26991.230.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <20061121010410.GA18806@spoonix.com> <20061202203900.GD8092@nexus.subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061204050220.GA13050@spoonix.com> On Sat, Dec 02, 2006 at 02:39:00PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > Is there any reason to do 1+0 instead of 0+1? raid 10 is a little more fault tolerant... you can lose 2 disks (a and d or b and c) before the system goes offline, and you don't have to spend time rebuilding from parity like in raid 5. If you've got quick access to the server and can address failures quickly, however, it's a moot point though... either one will work. -- K. Spoon From twistedpickles at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 23:40:51 2006 From: twistedpickles at gmail.com (twistedpickles) Date: Sun Dec 3 23:40:54 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] file access via web & samba ? Message-ID: A friend wants the capabilteies to share files from one central location from within a windows network and also want access to files via http. In the past what I have done is setup samba and openvpn to connect from outside my network. I tried recommending this similar setup but my friend mentioned he wants access from any computer with out having to setup a vpn connection. I thought of setting up samba for his local network and using apache or tux with .htaccess to restrict access via http. Any thoughts or suggestions? -- ::twistedPickles:: : From afcasta at texas.net Mon Dec 4 06:01:02 2006 From: afcasta at texas.net (Al Castanoli) Date: Mon Dec 4 05:59:08 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] RE: kerberos In-Reply-To: <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061129052417.6480E43E1AB@satlug.org> <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1165233662.14467.9.camel@linux> On Thu, 2006-11-30 at 08:35 -0600, Justizin wrote: > On 11/29/06, Mark McCoy wrote: > > > > > > > I'll second the recommendation to move away from openldap to one of the > > netscape derivatives like Fedora or Sun DS (basically the same product). > > The management tools included with these LDAP's are very well done (a little > > clunky at first, but they grow on you). I haven't tried to bring up > > openldap in any sort of production environment (with replication and all > > that), but I know first hand that replicating with Sun's DS is dead simple > > and rock solid (and I assume that the Redhat/Fedora one is as well, since > > they are based on the same code). > > Plone will be our directory manager. ;) > > I know a lot of people using OpenLDAP in the enterprise, but if FDS > and others are worth looking at, we will look at them. We could just > pretty much flip a switch and have Oracle offer LDAP, but then LDAP > wouldn't be a road away from Oracle. > > Anyway, this is really not answering my question. We will manage to > get LDAP running, I'm sure, no problem, in fact, this is not even my > job. Someone else will do it at my behest. > > What I'm trying to sort out is how to authenticate off of LDAP, > because LDAP is not an authentication protocol, and it is not secure. > > With Kerberos, for one, we could replace LDAP with anything, any time > we want, because PAM looks to kerberos and kerberos looks to > /etc/nsswitch.conf. > > I'm just curious if kerberos is overkill and if I can avoid giving > hundreds of application developers read access to my password database > without forcing them to deal with kerberos. ;) > > -- > Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect > ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter > http://www.siggraph.org/ I don't understand this ... We've been using Oracle LDAP servers for years in my server farm, and the only developer I allow access to the thousands of passwords we have in the database is the project manager. Why would hundreds of application developers have read access to your password database? Al Castanoli From kell at spoonix.com Mon Dec 4 06:13:13 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Mon Dec 4 06:13:06 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] file access via web & samba ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061204121313.GA15543@spoonix.com> On Sun, Dec 03, 2006 at 11:40:51PM -0600, twistedpickles wrote: > A friend wants the capabilteies to share files from one central > location from within a windows network and also want access to files > via http. [...] > I thought of setting up samba for his local network and using apache > or tux with .htaccess to restrict access via http. > > Any thoughts or suggestions? What about using WebDAV to handle the Windows sharing duty instead of adding samba into the mix? Windows can mount DAV shares the same way it uses SMB shares, and can work over SSL. That way, you can keep administration of the server limited to just apache if all he wants is file service and not stuff like print sharing or domain support. -- K. Spoon From twistedpickles at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 06:43:37 2006 From: twistedpickles at gmail.com (twistedpickles) Date: Mon Dec 4 06:43:40 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: file access via web & samba ? In-Reply-To: <20061204121313.GA15543@spoonix.com> References: <20061204121313.GA15543@spoonix.com> Message-ID: Thanks I'm looking into WebDav...I've never used it before. I'm trying to keep it simple and make adding shares easy. On 12/4/06, K. Spoon wrote: > On Sun, Dec 03, 2006 at 11:40:51PM -0600, twistedpickles wrote: > > A friend wants the capabilteies to share files from one central > > location from within a windows network and also want access to files > > via http. > [...] > > I thought of setting up samba for his local network and using apache > > or tux with .htaccess to restrict access via http. > > > > Any thoughts or suggestions? > > What about using WebDAV to handle the Windows sharing duty instead of > adding samba into the mix? Windows can mount DAV shares the same way it > uses SMB shares, and can work over SSL. That way, you can keep > administration of the server limited to just apache if all he wants is > file service and not stuff like print sharing or domain support. > > -- > K. Spoon > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- ::twistedPickles:: : From justizin at siggraph.org Mon Dec 4 06:57:41 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Mon Dec 4 06:57:45 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Merry Beermas In-Reply-To: <4570C9F6.3020507@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <588F4B63-C111-4C88-A238-7F637C8C0909@bleepsoft.com> <4570C577.3050107@gmail.com> <4570C9F6.3020507@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: <77be04730612040457k2836bbf6t367a381594c47ae2@mail.gmail.com> On 12/1/06, Geoff wrote: > Bruce Dubbs wrote: > > R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > > >> I really think the December meeting should be different, more social > >> than most meetings, but more importantly, with the addition of Beer. > >> > >> > >> I went ahead and threw up a page on the wiki: > >> http://satlug.org/wiki/index.php/Beermas > >> > >> Maybe just for december a change of pace? Besides BYOB get togethers are > >> always enjoyable ;) > >> > > A good idea, but we can't do it. SAC won't allow any alcohol. If you > > can find a location for *after* the meeting, that would be nice. > > There aren't any pizza joints that sell beer, anywhere near SAC that > someone can't think of? > > ;-) c'mon... there's gotta be more than a few.. > > 'sides that, the St. Mary's Strip is 'right there' (well, close enough) > Is Joey's still there? They used to make a killer honey wheat pizza, and they always had good seasonal on tap. > Because I'm lazy, when is the actual meeting set to occur this month? > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From justizin at siggraph.org Mon Dec 4 07:04:12 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Mon Dec 4 07:04:15 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] RE: kerberos In-Reply-To: <1165233662.14467.9.camel@linux> References: <20061129052417.6480E43E1AB@satlug.org> <77be04730611300635w7357b94y47ae410e4893195a@mail.gmail.com> <1165233662.14467.9.camel@linux> Message-ID: <77be04730612040504i9e88949xb52b007e92beb498@mail.gmail.com> > > I don't understand this ... We've been using Oracle LDAP servers for > years in my server farm, and the only developer I allow access to the > thousands of passwords we have in the database is the project manager. > Why would hundreds of application developers have read access to your > password database? > The password database is poignantly designed purely for this purpose. Otherwise, I'd gladly just store thousands of users in a BTree, inside of ZODB. Spoon is right that we should just be using a hash, but I am still nervous about exposing the hash - that's why we have /etc/shadow. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From travis at subspacefield.org Mon Dec 4 09:43:20 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Mon Dec 4 09:43:22 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] buying a motherboard with cpu In-Reply-To: References: <20061203191818.GA7696@nexus.subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061204154320.GA15612@subspacefield.org> On Sun, Dec 03, 2006 at 03:05:40PM -0600, Robert Pearson wrote: > I looked at the specs for this at the URL given and it shows no > support for Linux. > Were you able to verify your SATA II card would work with Linux before > purchase? No, I took a chance and bought it, hoping that it would work since it uses the Silicon Image chipset, which is supported. > Did it just plug and play with Linux? Or did you find some drivers? At first I had to apply a kernel patch to use the SiI 3124-2 chipset, but it works with recent 2.6 kernels out of the box. I emailed the mfr to let them know it works with Linux, but they apparently didn't update the page... if you have the time, email them and let them know that there are many Linux users out there :-) -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Mon Dec 4 09:43:27 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Mon Dec 4 09:43:28 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Harddrive issues In-Reply-To: <8ee65edd0611251923n31b66138g2265521ecf482a3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ee65edd0611251923n31b66138g2265521ecf482a3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061204154327.GB15612@subspacefield.org> On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 09:23:47PM -0600, Ed Coates wrote: > What would be the next suspect? I get no problems from hda at all, > but could it still be the controller, just on one channel? Would a > bad cable cause something like this? Motherboard? Just a guess, that you're using IDE cables without pull tabs on the connectors, and you've been unplugging them by pulling on the cable instead of the connector/tab, so now it has a short/open somewhere. Try replacing the cable. It could also be the controller, maybe damaged by ESD, but I think 90% chance it's the cable. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From mikeaw at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 09:53:34 2006 From: mikeaw at gmail.com (Mike Wallace) Date: Mon Dec 4 09:53:37 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4154519d0612040753n635ea7bcwdae1d8ff5355a363@mail.gmail.com> > Y'know, I've seen that picture on the web half a dozen times or more > and, while I can understand the teletype (I've used those in the Air > Force), and all the guages, and the monitor is cool, I have NEVER been > able to understand the purpose of the steering wheel, or valve handle, > or whatever that thing is, on a "computer". I believe the larger wheel operates the "ahead" main engine throttles and the smaller wheel operates the "astern" main engine throttles. A computer that big needs a steering mechanism in order to move it around from place to place. There are various alarms and gauges for cooland temperature and pressure, and power level. Among other things, there's the all important emergency reactor shutdown switch in case something goes wrong with your nuclear powered "computer." ;-) From leon36 at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 10:01:40 2006 From: leon36 at gmail.com (Samuel Leon) Date: Mon Dec 4 10:02:06 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Harddrive issues In-Reply-To: <20061204154327.GB15612@subspacefield.org> References: <8ee65edd0611251923n31b66138g2265521ecf482a3c@mail.gmail.com> <20061204154327.GB15612@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <45744664.10309@gmail.com> Travis H. wrote: > On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 09:23:47PM -0600, Ed Coates wrote: > >> What would be the next suspect? I get no problems from hda at all, >> but could it still be the controller, just on one channel? Would a >> bad cable cause something like this? Motherboard? >> > > Just a guess, that you're using IDE cables without pull tabs on the > connectors, and you've been unplugging them by pulling on the cable > instead of the connector/tab, so now it has a short/open somewhere. > Try replacing the cable. > > It could also be the controller, maybe damaged by ESD, but I > think 90% chance it's the cable. > I've had troubles with cables too. Makes all kinds of wacky errors. Also it seems like a good cable is hard to find... Sam From vern.davis at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 10:08:37 2006 From: vern.davis at gmail.com (Vern Davis) Date: Mon Dec 4 10:08:40 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4154519d0612040753n635ea7bcwdae1d8ff5355a363@mail.gmail.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4154519d0612040753n635ea7bcwdae1d8ff5355a363@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ef09f10612040808q67d434b6tf79bb6d537523d6d@mail.gmail.com> On 12/4/06, Mike Wallace wrote: > > Y'know, I've seen that picture on the web half a dozen times or more > > and, while I can understand the teletype (I've used those in the Air > > Force), and all the guages, and the monitor is cool, I have NEVER been > > able to understand the purpose of the steering wheel, or valve handle, > > or whatever that thing is, on a "computer". > > > I believe the larger wheel operates the "ahead" main engine throttles > and the smaller wheel operates the "astern" main engine throttles. Er - rudder/diving planes? -- vern.davis@gmail.com From scs at worldlinkisp.com Mon Dec 4 10:13:56 2006 From: scs at worldlinkisp.com (scs@worldlinkisp.com) Date: Mon Dec 4 10:14:05 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Harddrive issues Message-ID: <0374482cfa8c4797a64dfa390d7866c0.scs@worldlinkisp.com> Also check the molex power connector in additon to the IDE cable. As a real hands-on switch-a-roo hacker, I'm always swithcing HD's (and keep the side cover off). If you have a good grip the IDE connector can be manipulated by the ends, see-saw fashion to loosen, also don't push them all the way back into the drive connector, just enough for contact, and if you don't have contact you'll know when booting. And be sure to check the Molex power, seems they get loose where the wire is crimped to the contacts. Again you usually can feel the the drive is spinning (provided the HD is exposed. >------- Original Message ------- >From : Travis H.[mailto:travis@subspacefield.org] > >On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 09:23:47PM -0600, Ed Coates wrote: > What would be the next suspect? I get no problems from hda at all, > but could it still be the controller, just on one channel? Would a > bad cable cause something like this? Motherboard? Just a guess, that you're using IDE cables without pull tabs on the connectors, and you've been unplugging them by pulling on the cable instead of the connector/tab, so now it has a short/open somewhere. Try replacing the cable. It could also be the controller, maybe damaged by ESD, but I think 90% chance it's the cable. - From mikeaw at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 10:33:05 2006 From: mikeaw at gmail.com (Mike Wallace) Date: Mon Dec 4 10:33:08 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <5ef09f10612040808q67d434b6tf79bb6d537523d6d@mail.gmail.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4154519d0612040753n635ea7bcwdae1d8ff5355a363@mail.gmail.com> <5ef09f10612040808q67d434b6tf79bb6d537523d6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4154519d0612040833gc8b6a78y2b6fc35cef3535aa@mail.gmail.com> > > I believe the larger wheel operates the "ahead" main engine throttles > > and the smaller wheel operates the "astern" main engine throttles. > > > Er - rudder/diving planes? The picture is actually a fark photoshop of an old nuclear powered submarine. From scs at worldlinkisp.com Mon Dec 4 10:35:18 2006 From: scs at worldlinkisp.com (scs@worldlinkisp.com) Date: Mon Dec 4 10:35:22 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sun Releases JAVA to Open Source Message-ID: <9fd1c8a096c940e99b80ed49bc5af96b.scs@worldlinkisp.com> Per todya's Financial Times (ft . com ) Sun has finally released Java to Open Source. From travis at subspacefield.org Mon Dec 4 11:06:55 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Mon Dec 4 11:06:57 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] C++ code visualization In-Reply-To: <456873CD.1060400@gmail.com> References: <200611251309.kAPD94eO017869@biochem.uthscsa.edu> <456873CD.1060400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061204170655.GC15612@subspacefield.org> On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 10:48:13AM -0600, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > > I am looking for a Linux utility that would allow me to represent > > graphically calling hirarchies, classes, dependencies, and function > > calls for C++ source code. Is there such a thing somewhere? > > Graphically? That sounds like it would be terribly complex and not very > useful. In any moderate program there would be so many lines that you > couldn't follow it all. Yeah, I used the graphviz suite in the past, and any program that isn't trivial uses up too much screen real estate. At a previous company, they printed up multiple sheets of paper and taped them together, but even then that often wasn't enough space. It is really a problem in data reduction, because you don't care about most of the calls, or certain functions can be grouped together. Check out graphviz (neato, dot) and this site: http://www.doxpara.com/ He has some links to packages for manipulating and visualizing large graphs. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From justizin at siggraph.org Mon Dec 4 11:46:18 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Mon Dec 4 11:46:36 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] C++ code visualization In-Reply-To: <20061204170655.GC15612@subspacefield.org> References: <200611251309.kAPD94eO017869@biochem.uthscsa.edu> <456873CD.1060400@gmail.com> <20061204170655.GC15612@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <77be04730612040946v5dd341ealbb02a153acafd41f@mail.gmail.com> On 12/4/06, Travis H. wrote: > On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 10:48:13AM -0600, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > > > I am looking for a Linux utility that would allow me to represent > > > graphically calling hirarchies, classes, dependencies, and function > > > calls for C++ source code. Is there such a thing somewhere? > > > > Graphically? That sounds like it would be terribly complex and not very > > useful. In any moderate program there would be so many lines that you > > couldn't follow it all. > > > Yeah, I used the graphviz suite in the past, and any program that isn't > trivial uses up too much screen real estate. At a previous company, they > printed up multiple sheets of paper and taped them together, but even then > that often wasn't enough space. It is really a problem in data reduction, > because you don't care about most of the calls, or certain functions can be > grouped together. > Again, one reason I suggest mapping it out by hand is that relationships which don't make sense in the existing design will be painfully difficult to model. ;) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 12:38:13 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Mon Dec 4 12:38:18 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] SCOX going low Message-ID: <45746B15.7080800@gmail.com> For those that don't follow the lawsuits that The SCO Group (SCOX) has ongoing that are attacking Linux, the following is telling... The stock is tanking. In the last three days it has gone from $2.40 to $2.00 to 1.22 and is now at $1.06. What is most telling is the volume of the stock that has been at about 20-40 times the normal. But most amusing of all is the charts. See today's at http://www.bigcharts.com/custom/dilbert-com/dilbert.asp?sid=0&o_symb=scox&symb=scox&time=1&uf=0 Notice the volume between 1130 and 1200: x x xx x xxxxx ASCII art doesn't do it justice. :) -- Bruce From scs at worldlinkisp.com Mon Dec 4 14:12:30 2006 From: scs at worldlinkisp.com (scs@worldlinkisp.com) Date: Mon Dec 4 14:12:37 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] SCOX going low Message-ID: <1c4800b3b0cf407780b9a194c1afead3.scs@worldlinkisp.com> Even more graphic IS --> < finance.yahoo . com > SCOX and pulling up a three or six month chart. Couldn't happen to a more deserving entity, what goes around comes around (especially when you get in bed with the Devil aka MSFT). From jeremymann at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 15:40:58 2006 From: jeremymann at gmail.com (Jeremy Mann) Date: Mon Dec 4 15:41:00 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] ATI Radeon on a laptop Message-ID: <79ec289f0612041340o6eb352fdp3976c8139bb559ef@mail.gmail.com> Hey all, I need somebody with a laptop that has an ATI Radeon Mobility chipset to check something for me. I need to find out if you can drive the external VGA port as another screen, not as a clone. I know NVIDIA can do this but can only find vague information online on the Radeon. Thanks! -- Jeremy From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Mon Dec 4 16:51:55 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Mon Dec 4 16:52:08 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] anti-spam effort Message-ID: <4574A68B.5030004@w5omr.shacknet.nu> *Which topic categories would you like to subscribe to?* By selecting one or more topics, you can filter the traffic on the mailing list, so as to receive only a subset of the messages. If a message matches one of your selected topics, then you will get the message, otherwise you will not. If a message does not match any topic, the delivery rule depends on the setting of the option below. If you do not select any topics of interest, you will get all the messages sent to the mailing list. /No topics defined/ *Do you want to receive messages that do not match any topic filter?* This option only takes effect if you've subscribed to at least one topic above. It describes what the default delivery rule is for messages that don't match any topic filter. Selecting /No/ says that if the message does not match any topic filters, then you won't get the message, while selecting /Yes/ says to delivery such non-matching messages to you. If no topics of interest are selected above, then you will receive every message sent to the mailing list. If a topic of [SATLUG] were defined, could it be possible, that we'd never see spam on the list, again? -- Regards, -Geoff From edcoates at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 16:57:12 2006 From: edcoates at gmail.com (Ed Coates) Date: Mon Dec 4 16:57:15 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] mysql3 to mysql4 database update In-Reply-To: <57800.127.0.0.1.1165060771.squirrel@localhost> References: <57800.127.0.0.1.1165060771.squirrel@localhost> Message-ID: <8ee65edd0612041457m58380395wdf3a066c6cae414c@mail.gmail.com> On 12/2/06, Luis Garza wrote: > I have stopped mysqld and backed up my /var/lib/mysql. > > Question: > > After I have updated my mysql server from mysql3 to mysql4, will my > database be alright. Will I still be able to access them without > problems? > > Is there a conversion process? > > Luis Garza > www.luisgarza.com > luis@luisgarza.com > lrgarza2000@yahoo.com Luis, Take a look at http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/4.1/en/upgrading-from-3-23.html Might have all the information that you're looking for. Ed From justizin at siggraph.org Mon Dec 4 18:18:56 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Mon Dec 4 18:19:08 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sun Releases JAVA to Open Source In-Reply-To: <9fd1c8a096c940e99b80ed49bc5af96b.scs@worldlinkisp.com> References: <9fd1c8a096c940e99b80ed49bc5af96b.scs@worldlinkisp.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612041618u1204c94co19b9c5637c2bd766@mail.gmail.com> Also: http://www.fsf.org/news/fsf-welcomes-gpl-java.html ;) On 12/4/06, scs@worldlinkisp.com wrote: > Per todya's Financial Times (ft . com ) Sun has > finally released Java to Open Source. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From jbharrell at fusemeister.com Mon Dec 4 19:20:31 2006 From: jbharrell at fusemeister.com (Brinkley Harrell) Date: Mon Dec 4 19:20:44 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> Mitch Thompson wrote: > skolars wrote: > >> Thought you would like this on: >> http://cis.sac.accd.edu/~skolars/rand.jpg >> . It is from a 1954 >> Popular Mechanics Magazine. >> >> Steve >> >> > Y'know, I've seen that picture on the web half a dozen times or more > and, while I can understand the teletype (I've used those in the Air > Force), and all the guages, and the monitor is cool, I have NEVER been > able to understand the purpose of the steering wheel, or valve handle, > or whatever that thing is, on a "computer". > Ya know, Micth -- I recognized the thing right out. It's the Engineering control space from an S5W submarine reactor plant. The panel with the "big steering wheel" is the Steam Plant Control Panel and the wheels are the steam throttles that control the main engine turbines: big wheel is the ahead turbine control and little wheel is the astern turbine control. The middle panel with the black joy stick in the middle is the Reactor Plant Control Panel and the joy stick controls the reactor control rods. The right-most panel controls the electric plant turbines and battery. Even though it is a depiction of this scene for a museum, it's not accurate. B. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brinkley Harrell http://www.fusemeister.com From mitchthompson at satx.rr.com Mon Dec 4 19:53:24 2006 From: mitchthompson at satx.rr.com (Mitch Thompson) Date: Mon Dec 4 19:53:03 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> Message-ID: <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> Brinkley Harrell wrote: > Mitch Thompson wrote: >> skolars wrote: >> >>> Thought you would like this on: >>> http://cis.sac.accd.edu/~skolars/rand.jpg >>> . It is from a 1954 >>> Popular Mechanics Magazine. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >> Y'know, I've seen that picture on the web half a dozen times or more >> and, while I can understand the teletype (I've used those in the Air >> Force), and all the guages, and the monitor is cool, I have NEVER been >> able to understand the purpose of the steering wheel, or valve handle, >> or whatever that thing is, on a "computer". >> > Ya know, Micth -- I recognized the thing right out. It's the > Engineering control space from an S5W submarine reactor plant. The > panel with the "big steering wheel" is the Steam Plant Control Panel > and the wheels are the steam throttles that control the main engine > turbines: big wheel is the ahead turbine control and little wheel is > the astern turbine control. > > The middle panel with the black joy stick in the middle is the Reactor > Plant Control Panel and the joy stick controls the reactor control > rods. The right-most panel controls the electric plant turbines and > battery. > > Even though it is a depiction of this scene for a museum, it's not > accurate. > > B. > Hey, Brinkley. Yeah, but you have a slight advantage over many of us here...;^) From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Mon Dec 4 20:07:22 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Mon Dec 4 20:07:37 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Mitch Thompson wrote: >> >> Even though it is a depiction of this scene for a museum, it's not >> accurate. >> >> B. >> >> > Hey, Brinkley. > > Yeah, but you have a slight advantage over many of us here...;^) > Was that an admission that many of you guys need to carry towels because you're still wet behind the ears? ;-> (from another ol' fart who just celebrated his 29th anniversary of his 19th birthday) -- -Geoff From ziriax at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 20:16:19 2006 From: ziriax at gmail.com (John Ziriax) Date: Mon Dec 4 20:16:28 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] ATI Radeon on a laptop In-Reply-To: <79ec289f0612041340o6eb352fdp3976c8139bb559ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <79ec289f0612041340o6eb352fdp3976c8139bb559ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31bde60e0612041816s487254fao3ea478e5fd5e979e@mail.gmail.com> On 12/4/06, Jeremy Mann wrote: > Hey all, I need somebody with a laptop that has an ATI Radeon Mobility > chipset to check something for me. I need to find out if you can drive > the external VGA port as another screen, not as a clone. I know NVIDIA > can do this but can only find vague information online on the Radeon. > > Thanks! > > -- > Jeremy Jermey I have a Viao laptop with a Mobility Radeon video card running Debian unstable. I have to apologize for not remembering the procedure for setting it up, but all the files came off the Debian tree. There is an ATI Control panel (read GUI) which lets you control the internal and external monitors. I ran the both monitors for a while, but the larger external monitor won out. Here's a clip of the relevant sections of the xorg.conf file. I found this somewhere on the internet and just fooled with it until it worked. I have the fglrx-control, -driver, and -kernel-src version 8.28.8-4 installed. Hope this helps. John Section "Monitor" Identifier "Monitor0" VendorName "Monitor Vendor" ModelName "LCD Panel 1280x800" Option "dpms" HorizSync 28-103 VertRefresh 40-110 Gamma 1.0 1.0 1.0 # external clone monitor # HorizSync2 30.0 - 82.0 # VertRefresh2 50.0 - 75.0 # must use "xset dpms 300 0 0" for DPMS Modeline "1400x1050" 107.85 1400 1450 1500 1999 1050 1058 1070 1150 Modeline "1400x1050" 122.00 1400 1464 1784 1912 1050 1052 1064 1090 -HSync -VSync # 1400x1050 @ 74.37Hz, 81.1 kHz HSync ModeLine "1400x1050" 155.00 1400 1464 1784 1912 1050 1052 1064 1090 -HSync -VSync # 1400x1050 @ 91.00Hz, 99.19 kHz HSync ModeLine "1400x1050" 189.65 1400 1464 1784 1912 1050 1052 1064 1090 -HSync -VSync # 1280x1024 & 75Hz Modeline "1280x1024-75" 135 1280 1296 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 +HSync +VSync # 1280x1024 & 60Hz Modeline "1280x1024-60" 108 1280 1328 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 +HSync +VSync EndSection Section "Device" Identifier "Videocard0" Driver "fglrx" VendorName "Videocard vendor" BoardName "ATI Radeon Mobility 9600 M10" Option "BusType" "PCI" #0731 ### Available Driver options are:- ### 2D ACCELLERATION Option "RenderAccel" "yes" # hardware Render acceleration Option "BackinStore" "yes" # prevent artifacts ### 3D ACCELLERATION Option "EnablePageFlip" "yes" # Improves performance Option "AGPFastWrite" "yes" # Option "AGPMode" "4" # Supports AGP Nx # Option "CRTScreen" # ? Castillo ? (broken!) # these "clone"s are experimental (D.J.Barry@cornell) # turns the external monitor on even without a unit attached Option "CloneDisplay" "2" # syncs for the external video -- now can operate independently Option "CloneHSync" "30-82" Option "CloneVRefresh" "50-75" # force an external mode -- DDC detection on some projectors does not work # for 1024x768 on both, use "1024x786" "Modes" in "Screen" below also # Option "CloneMode" "1280x1024" "1024x786" # Option "NoAccel" # Option "SWcursor" Option "HWcursor" Option "Dac6Bit" Option "Dac8Bit" # Option "ForcePCIMode" Option "CCEPIOMode" Option "CCENoSecurity" Option "CCEusecTimeout" Option "AGPSize" Option "RingSize" Option "VBListSize" Option "VBSize" # Option "UseCCEfor2D" Option "PanelWidth" Option "PanelHeight" ##Option "UseFBDev" EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "Videocard0" Monitor "Monitor0" Option "DesktopSetup" "Clone" # Device "ATI Radeon R300" # Monitor "LCD Panel internal" # 24 bits is the nice default setup DefaultDepth 24 DefaultFbBpp 32 # -- OR -- # use depth 16 if you want DRI/DRM/GL acceleration #DefaultDepth 16 SubSection "Display" Depth 8 Modes "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 16 Modes "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 24 Modes "1680x1050" "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 32 Modes "1680x1050" "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection -- John From jbharrell at fusemeister.com Mon Dec 4 20:33:20 2006 From: jbharrell at fusemeister.com (Brinkley Harrell) Date: Mon Dec 4 20:33:36 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> Geoff wrote: > Mitch Thompson wrote: >>> >>> Even though it is a depiction of this scene for a museum, it's not >>> accurate. >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >> Hey, Brinkley. >> >> Yeah, but you have a slight advantage over many of us here...;^) >> > > Was that an admission that many of you guys need to carry towels > because you're still wet behind the ears? > ;-> > (from another ol' fart who just celebrated his 29th anniversary of his > 19th birthday) > Damn, a kid!! ;-) -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brinkley Harrell http://www.fusemeister.com From benjamin.temple at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 21:19:01 2006 From: benjamin.temple at gmail.com (Benjamin Temple) Date: Mon Dec 4 21:19:05 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> Message-ID: <368c881c0612041919v5c8b5541m52b0eae822d8ef08@mail.gmail.com> it would be even worse is it had said "teletype with COBOL" Ive heard the language is hard to learn. On 12/4/06, Brinkley Harrell wrote: > > Geoff wrote: > > Mitch Thompson wrote: > >>> > >>> Even though it is a depiction of this scene for a museum, it's not > >>> accurate. > >>> > >>> B. > >>> > >>> > >> Hey, Brinkley. > >> > >> Yeah, but you have a slight advantage over many of us here...;^) > >> > > > > Was that an admission that many of you guys need to carry towels > > because you're still wet behind the ears? > > ;-> > > (from another ol' fart who just celebrated his 29th anniversary of his > > 19th birthday) > > > Damn, a kid!! ;-) > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Brinkley Harrell > http://www.fusemeister.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > From benjamin.temple at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 21:20:38 2006 From: benjamin.temple at gmail.com (Benjamin Temple) Date: Mon Dec 4 21:20:41 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] help with wireless card Atheros ARG5005 rev 01 In-Reply-To: <8C8E379381B8241-860-A869@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C8E26F6F6F12F2-BE0-DF3C@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> <46593AE2-B291-4CC6-8273-42459DF455A6@bleepsoft.com> <456F3DB9.9000205@gmail.com> <8C8E379381B8241-860-A869@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <368c881c0612041920g51edad0ascee2124004bec76e@mail.gmail.com> i am using a similar card, the netgear wg311t and experiencing the same problem. I cannot connect to any wifi network. On 12/1/06, riugakusei@netscape.net wrote: > > i am running FC6 with an Atheros AR5005g NIC rev 1 card, i installed > madwifi and loaded ath_pci module and my card des get recognized, i can see > the wirless networkavalable but i won't pick up no ip address via dhcp,i get > the following form dmesg|grep ath: > > #dmesg|grep ath: /* i have no ide what this output means */ > ath_hal: no version for"struct_module" foundkernel tainted > ath_hal: module license 'propietary ' taints kernel > ath_hal: 0.9.18 (AR5210, AR5211,RF5111,RF5112,RF2413,RF5413) > ath_rate_sample: 1.2 (0.9.13) > ath_pci: 0.9.4.5(0.9.3) > device-mapper: multippath : version 1.0.4 loaded > > from dmesg|grep wifi0: > wifi0: 11g rates: 1Mdps 2mps 5.5 mps 48 mps 54mps / *there were several > lines because they had the same ouput */ > wifi): H/W encriion supported: WEP AES AES_CCM TKIP > wifi0: use hw que 1 for WME_ACBE traffffic > wif0:Atheros 5212: mem= 0xc300000, irq=2333 > > from lsmod|grep ath: > dm_multipath 22601 0 > d_mod 61529 2 dm_mirror,dm_multpath > ath_pci 91940 0 > ath_rate_sample 17536 1 ath_pci > wlan 185948 4 4 wlan_scan_sta,ath_pci,ath_rate_sample > ath_hal 195152 3 ath_pci,ath_rate_sample > > hope that info can help you figure my problem., i just don't want to use > Windows . thanks for your patience > Vega > > -----Original Message----- > From: bruce.dubbs@gmail.com > To: satlug@satlug.org > Sent: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 2:23 PMe > Subject: Re: [SATLUG] error while executing make > > R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > > > On Nov 30, 2006, at 2:19 AM, riugakusei@netscape.net wrote: > > > >> i havea acer aspire 9300 laptop i did a fresh install of f c 6, al > >> i got to do is complile the acer_acpi module and enable the wireless > >> in order for it to work. y problem ste following. > >> everytime i do make it gives me a lot of errors, any idea how to get > >> around this? my wireless card is an Atheros AR5005G rev 01, i loaaded > >> ath_pci and it gets rcognized... but still no wirlesss...any help? > >> Medar > > > > Error messages! We need error messages! > > The above *is* an error message. It certainly is not coherent. > > -- Bruce > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (0www.rackspace.com) > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading > spam and email virus protection. > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > From mitchthompson at satx.rr.com Mon Dec 4 21:58:13 2006 From: mitchthompson at satx.rr.com (Mitch Thompson) Date: Mon Dec 4 21:57:51 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: <4574EE55.5010003@satx.rr.com> Geoff wrote: > Mitch Thompson wrote: >>> >>> Even though it is a depiction of this scene for a museum, it's not >>> accurate. >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >> Hey, Brinkley. >> >> Yeah, but you have a slight advantage over many of us here...;^) >> > > Was that an admission that many of you guys need to carry towels > because you're still wet behind the ears? > ;-> > (from another ol' fart who just celebrated his 29th anniversary of his > 19th birthday) > Yeah, ya got me. I've only celebrated my 19th birthday 25 times. ;^). Actually, Brinkley's advantage was being a Nuclear propulsion officer in the U.S. Navy. From nathan at gvtc.com Mon Dec 4 22:35:54 2006 From: nathan at gvtc.com (Nathan Oxhandler) Date: Mon Dec 4 22:36:00 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Computer Show Message-ID: <4574F72A.80703@gvtc.com> Don, Boz, other computer show workers, Just wanted to check in and see if we needed anything special for the show on the 9th. I plan on being there, but that is also the first night of the Santa Run at the Transportation Museum. Since I have to go there right after the computer show, my car will be full for both. I will probably not bring my printer this time. Don, I found my Santa Hat from last year, will try and remember to bring it. Nathan From tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org Mon Dec 4 23:36:36 2006 From: tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org (tweeks) Date: Mon Dec 4 23:36:37 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: file access via web & samba ? In-Reply-To: References: <20061204121313.GA15543@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <200612042336.36442.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> On Monday 04 December 2006 06:43, twistedpickles wrote: > Thanks I'm looking into WebDav...I've never used it before. I'm trying > to keep it simple and make adding shares easy. I did a write up on it in "Linux Troubleshooting Bible"... hold on.. Here's a SATLUG post where I show a quick-n-dirty WebDav implementation on Apache: http://www.satlug.org/pipermail/satlug/2006-April/042356.html That'll get you going. Tweeks From riugakusei at aim.com Tue Dec 5 02:19:01 2006 From: riugakusei at aim.com (riugakusei@aim.com) Date: Tue Dec 5 02:19:12 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] help with wireless card Atheros ARG5005 rev 01 In-Reply-To: <368c881c0612041920g51edad0ascee2124004bec76e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8C8E26F6F6F12F2-BE0-DF3C@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> <46593AE2-B291-4CC6-8273-42459DF455A6@bleepsoft.com> <456F3DB9.9000205@gmail.com> <8C8E379381B8241-860-A869@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> <368c881c0612041920g51edad0ascee2124004bec76e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C8E65D27CF2CB5-780-34E1@webmail-db10.sysops.aol.com> i am having the same problem but i think i am making some progress.. i found the windows driver for my card, in my case net5211.inf i installed and loaded ndiswrapper, then i loadedthe Wndows driver #ndiswrapper -i xxx.inf then checked if loaded #ndiswraper -l( it should tell you have the hardware present) afer that i edited /etc/modprobe.conf and added the following: alias wlan0 ndiswrapper. then i run from the terminal syste-config-network& and add new wireless device and it IS LISTED AS NDISWRAPPER(wlan0) my problem is the following: when i go to the HARDWARE DEVICE setion i click on the BIND TO MAC ADDRESS and it tells me [ERRNO 19] NO SUCH DEVICE.... any body nows a way around this... thanks in advice hope this helps you a litle, because t sees w are in the same boat Medar -----Original Message----- From: benjamin.temple@gmail.com To: satlug@satlug.org Sent: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 9:20 PM Subject: Re: [SATLUG] help with wireless card Atheros ARG5005 rev 01 i am using a similar card, the netgear wg311t and experiencing the same problem. I cannot connect to any wifi network. On 12/1/06, riugakusei@netscape.net wrote: > > i am running FC6 with an Atheros AR5005g NIC rev 1 card, i installed > madwifi and loaded ath_pci module and my card des get recognized, i can see > the wirless networkavalable but i won't pick up no ip address via dhcp,i get > the following form dmesg|grep ath: > > #dmesg|grep ath: /* i have no ide what this output means */ > ath_hal: no version for"struct_module" foundkernel tainted > ath_hal: module license 'propietary ' taints kernel > ath_hal: 0.9.18 (AR5210, AR5211,RF5111,RF5112,RF2413,RF5413) > ath_rate_sample: 1.2 (0.9.13) > ath_pci: 0.9.4.5(0.9.3) > device-mapper: multippath : version 1.0.4 loaded > > from dmesg|grep wifi0: > wifi0: 11g rates: 1Mdps 2mps 5.5 mps 48 mps 54mps / *there were several > lines because they had the same ouput */ > wifi): H/W encriion supported: WEP AES AES_CCM TKIP > wifi0: use hw que 1 for WME_ACBE traffffic > wif0:Atheros 5212: mem= 0xc300000, irq=2333 > > from lsmod|grep ath: > dm_multipath 22601 0 > d_mod 61529 2 dm_mirror,dm_multpath > ath_pci 91940 0 > ath_rate_sample 17536 1 ath_pci > wlan 185948 4 4 wlan_scan_sta,ath_pci,ath_rate_sample > ath_hal 195152 3 ath_pci,ath_rate_sample > > hope that info can help you figure my problem., i just don't want to use > Windows . thanks for your patience > Vega > > -----Original Message----- > From: bruce.dubbs@gmail.com > To: satlug@satlug.org > Sent: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 2:23 PMe > Subject: Re: [SATLUG] error while executing make > > R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > > > On Nov 30, 2006, at 2:19 AM, riugakusei@netscape.net wrote: > > > >> i havea acer aspire 9300 laptop i did a fresh install of f c 6, al > >> i got to do is complile the acer_acpi module and enable the wireless > >> in order for it to work. y problem ste following. > >> everytime i do make it gives me a lot of errors, any idea how to get > >> around this? my wireless card is an Atheros AR5005G rev 01, i loaaded > >> ath_pci and it gets rcognized... but still no wirlesss...any help? > >> Medar > > > > Error messages! We need error messages! > > The above *is* an error message. It certainly is not coherent. > > -- Bruce > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (0www.rackspace.com) > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading > spam and email virus protection. > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- _______________________________________________ SATLUG mailing list SATLUG@satlug.org http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. From cd_satl at futuretechsolutions.com Tue Dec 5 02:32:51 2006 From: cd_satl at futuretechsolutions.com (Charles D Hogan) Date: Tue Dec 5 02:38:27 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] anti-spam effort In-Reply-To: <4574A68B.5030004@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <4574A68B.5030004@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: <45752EB3.3040300@futuretechsolutions.com> The problem is not that the spam is going through the list, as the list is moderated, but rather some clever spammer has found a way to harvest our addresses. Looking at the message archives on satlug.org, it wouldn't be all that difficult to REGEX the "me at here.com" for the sender back to "me@here.com". Take a look at the html of a handful of messages in the archive, you will see a pattern easy to REGEX for that. A simple script calling wget, and then running the results through a fairly simple REGEX will get you all the useable addresses that post to the list. The address I use for the mailing list is an alias that has never been used for anything but this list. Yet it still receives SPAM. It never received spam while I was just lurking, only after my first post. One way to get around the spammers would be to set up one address that you use to post to the list, and another that you only receive to. Once your "post from" address is confirmed by the list, quietly drop all mail going to that address into /dev/null. Never use the receive address for sending anything, and make sure that it is not a common word. I would probably do that, but my spam filters on my mail server, and here at home, are aggressive enough to keep the majority of spam out. So little of the spam going to my satlug only address makes it through that it would be more of a bother for me to do that than delete the ones I get. Obviously, this won't work if you still wish to get mail on the address that the vile vermin have already gotten ahold of. The first spam in about a week or 2 that made it to my satlug only address arrived just this evening, so it has not yet made it to the rubbish bin. I am posting the pertinent headers, and you will notice, it never even hit the satlug server. Charles -------- Original Message -------- From: - Tue Dec 5 01:29:36 2006 X-UIDL: _ZhB.w9HdFB.mxin3.lsn.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-Path: Received: from dtmd-4db5c273.pool.einsundeins.de (dtmd-4db5c273.pool.einsundeins.de [77.181.194.115]) by futuretechsolutions.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id kB4KGNVA011567; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:16:24 -0500 Received: from 217.140.40.14 (HELO btmx4.sun.com) by futuretechsolutions.com with esmtp ((5AK;(+.3WN. W(I-,) id W+*J8+-C*0*CE-5. for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:05:06 -0060 From: Lessie Johnston To: Subject: fwd: Johnston Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:05:06 -0060 Message-ID: <01c717df$7e6eb980$6c822ecf@stricterferry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Geoff wrote: > > *Which topic categories would you like to subscribe to?* > > By selecting one or more topics, you can filter the traffic on the > mailing list, so as to receive only a subset of the messages. If a > message matches one of your selected topics, then you will get the > message, otherwise you will not. > > If a message does not match any topic, the delivery rule depends on the > setting of the option below. If you do not select any topics of > interest, you will get all the messages sent to the mailing list. > > /No topics defined/ > *Do you want to receive messages that do not match any topic filter?* > > This option only takes effect if you've subscribed to at least one topic > above. It describes what the default delivery rule is for messages that > don't match any topic filter. Selecting /No/ says that if the message > does not match any topic filters, then you won't get the message, while > selecting /Yes/ says to delivery such non-matching messages to you. > > If no topics of interest are selected above, then you will receive every > message sent to the mailing list. > > If a topic of [SATLUG] were defined, could it be possible, that we'd > never see spam on the list, again? > > > -- > Regards, > -Geoff > > From cd_satl at futuretechsolutions.com Tue Dec 5 02:42:05 2006 From: cd_satl at futuretechsolutions.com (Charles D Hogan) Date: Tue Dec 5 02:47:34 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] SCOX going low In-Reply-To: <45746B15.7080800@gmail.com> References: <45746B15.7080800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <457530DD.3050707@futuretechsolutions.com> This brings joy to my heart. I would hate to be one of the poor schmucks, no offense to my cat, that got in immediately after the lawsuit was announced and the stock price jumped to ridiculously high levels. Charles Schmuck, my cat, hard at work: http://www.futuretechsolutions.com/~cdhogan/photos/Cats/Schmuck_09.jpg Bruce Dubbs wrote: > For those that don't follow the lawsuits that The SCO Group (SCOX) has > ongoing that are attacking Linux, the following is telling... > > The stock is tanking. In the last three days it has gone from $2.40 to > $2.00 to 1.22 and is now at $1.06. What is most telling is the volume > of the stock that has been at about 20-40 times the normal. > > But most amusing of all is the charts. See today's at > > http://www.bigcharts.com/custom/dilbert-com/dilbert.asp?sid=0&o_symb=scox&symb=scox&time=1&uf=0 > > > Notice the volume between 1130 and 1200: > > x > x > xx x > xxxxx > > ASCII art doesn't do it justice. :) > > -- Bruce From e2eiod at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 04:42:56 2006 From: e2eiod at gmail.com (Robert Pearson) Date: Tue Dec 5 04:43:03 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] anti-spam effort In-Reply-To: <45752EB3.3040300@futuretechsolutions.com> References: <4574A68B.5030004@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <45752EB3.3040300@futuretechsolutions.com> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, Charles D Hogan wrote: > The problem is not that the spam is going through the list, as the list > is moderated, but rather some clever spammer has found a way to harvest > our addresses. Looking at the message archives on satlug.org, it > wouldn't be all that difficult to REGEX the "me at here.com" for the > sender back to "me@here.com". Take a look at the html of a handful of > messages in the archive, you will see a pattern easy to REGEX for that. > A simple script calling wget, and then running the results through a > fairly simple REGEX will get you all the useable addresses that post to > the list. > > The address I use for the mailing list is an alias that has never been > used for anything but this list. Yet it still receives SPAM. It never > received spam while I was just lurking, only after my first post. > > One way to get around the spammers would be to set up one address that > you use to post to the list, and another that you only receive to. Once > your "post from" address is confirmed by the list, quietly drop all mail > going to that address into /dev/null. Never use the receive address for > sending anything, and make sure that it is not a common word. I would > probably do that, but my spam filters on my mail server, and here at > home, are aggressive enough to keep the majority of spam out. So little > of the spam going to my satlug only address makes it through that it > would be more of a bother for me to do that than delete the ones I get. > Obviously, this won't work if you still wish to get mail on the > address that the vile vermin have already gotten ahold of. > > The first spam in about a week or 2 that made it to my satlug only > address arrived just this evening, so it has not yet made it to the > rubbish bin. I am posting the pertinent headers, and you will notice, > it never even hit the satlug server. > > Charles Do you use gmail? I use gmail exclusively. I visit lots of Web sites, I am on several mailing lists, and I am having the same type of problem. I am getting very clever SPAM constructed with words that I have only used in posting to a Web site or replying on a mailing list. This indicates to me that it is browser and platform based. I normally use gmail from one machine. When I use gmail from one of my other machines I don't get this. Perhaps there is a bug on my primary machine? One of the mailing lists was most interesting in the way it happened. I receive mail from the JavaMUG.org mailing list. I hardly ever reply to these because they are mostly Java job postings. There was a flurry of emails from some guy promoting himself, some headhunter service or some Java tools. It looked OK, like a normal job posting. Normally I delete these unopened due to lack of interest. I opened this one. I started having problems with that mailing list, and another totally different one, shortly after opening that email. This just started in the last couple of months. From jsimmons3 at satx.rr.com Tue Dec 5 05:37:48 2006 From: jsimmons3 at satx.rr.com (John Simmons) Date: Tue Dec 5 05:44:35 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] C++/Direct Show Dev Needed....ASAP In-Reply-To: <456EF5A5.1000904@nvision2020.com> References: <456EF5A5.1000904@nvision2020.com> Message-ID: <45755A0C.2090207@satx.rr.com> Dean McCall wrote: > C++ Direct Show Developers > > Must posses 5 years or more Direct Show experience with an Open GL > background, Video background is a plus but not required Salary $45000 > to $150,000 US. Must we able to work in USA or be able to be Sponsored. > Looking for someone in the San Marcos area but willing to take > telecommuters on a case by case basis. This is a full time position. > If interested please respond of list... > > Thanks > Dean > > Not only is this completely unrelated to linux, but I've done DirectShow programming and I hated it. It's one of the most convoluted pieces of crap I've ever seen in my 27 years of programming. From comptech3 at mikeester.com Tue Dec 5 05:50:58 2006 From: comptech3 at mikeester.com (Mike Ester) Date: Tue Dec 5 05:51:01 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: <20061205055058.29fcbe4f@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:07:22 -0600 Geoff wrote: > Was that an admission that many of you guys need to carry towels because > you're still wet behind the ears? > ;-> > (from another ol' fart who just celebrated his 29th anniversary of his > 19th birthday) Next, you will tell us how you struggled in grade school with taking notes with cunieform tablets. ;) From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Tue Dec 5 06:21:20 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Tue Dec 5 06:21:33 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <20061205055058.29fcbe4f@localhost.localdomain> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <20061205055058.29fcbe4f@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45756440.6080603@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Mike Ester wrote: > On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:07:22 -0600 > Geoff wrote: > > >> Was that an admission that many of you guys need to carry towels because >> you're still wet behind the ears? >> ;-> >> (from another ol' fart who just celebrated his 29th anniversary of his >> 19th birthday) >> > > Next, you will tell us how you struggled in grade school with taking notes with cunieform tablets. ;) > While walking to school. In the Snow. Up hill! BOTH WAYS! ;-) nah ... we weren't that disadvanaged... but we did carve our own IC's outta wood.... *(snicker*) -- -Geoff From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Tue Dec 5 06:22:56 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Tue Dec 5 06:23:09 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> Message-ID: <457564A0.1040200@w5omr.shacknet.nu> >> >> Was that an admission that many of you guys need to carry towels >> because you're still wet behind the ears? >> ;-> >> (from another ol' fart who just celebrated his 29th anniversary of >> his 19th birthday) >> > Damn, a kid!! ;-) > I knew -that- was commin'... but not -nearly- as often as I'll hear "what color was your dinosaur?" or "when you fart, does dust come out?" or stuff like that there. -- 73 = Best Regards, -Geoff/W5OMR A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Tue Dec 5 06:25:54 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Tue Dec 5 06:26:09 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4574EE55.5010003@satx.rr.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574EE55.5010003@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <45756552.2000805@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Mitch Thompson wrote: >> (from another ol' fart who just celebrated his 29th anniversary of his >> 19th birthday) >> > Yeah, ya got me. I've only celebrated my 19th birthday 25 times. ;^). > > Actually, Brinkley's advantage was being a Nuclear propulsion officer in > the U.S. Navy. Well, COOL! So, Brinkly! (and the rest of you vets in here, new and old) Thanks! -- "Every day of Freedom is a good day to thank a Veteran!" From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Tue Dec 5 06:32:35 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Tue Dec 5 06:32:48 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] anti-spam effort In-Reply-To: References: <4574A68B.5030004@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <45752EB3.3040300@futuretechsolutions.com> Message-ID: <457566E3.2050807@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Robert Pearson wrote: > On 12/5/06, Charles D Hogan wrote: >> The problem is not that the spam is going through the list, as the list >> is moderated, but rather some clever spammer has found a way to harvest >> our addresses. Looking at the message archives on satlug.org, it >> wouldn't be all that difficult to REGEX the "me at here.com" for the >> sender back to "me@here.com". Take a look at the html of a handful of >> messages in the archive, you will see a pattern easy to REGEX for that. >> A simple script calling wget, and then running the results through a >> fairly simple REGEX will get you all the useable addresses that post to >> the list. >> >> The address I use for the mailing list is an alias that has never been >> used for anything but this list. Yet it still receives SPAM. It never >> received spam while I was just lurking, only after my first post. >> >> One way to get around the spammers would be to set up one address that >> you use to post to the list, and another that you only receive to. Once >> your "post from" address is confirmed by the list, quietly drop all mail >> going to that address into /dev/null. Never use the receive address for >> sending anything, and make sure that it is not a common word. I would >> probably do that, but my spam filters on my mail server, and here at >> home, are aggressive enough to keep the majority of spam out. So little >> of the spam going to my satlug only address makes it through that it >> would be more of a bother for me to do that than delete the ones I get. >> Obviously, this won't work if you still wish to get mail on the >> address that the vile vermin have already gotten ahold of. >> >> The first spam in about a week or 2 that made it to my satlug only >> address arrived just this evening, so it has not yet made it to the >> rubbish bin. I am posting the pertinent headers, and you will notice, >> it never even hit the satlug server. >> >> Charles > > Do you use gmail? I use gmail exclusively. > > I visit lots of Web sites, I am on several mailing lists, and I am > having the same type of problem. > > I am getting very clever SPAM constructed with words that I have only > used in posting to a Web site or replying on a mailing list. This > indicates to me that it is browser and platform based. I normally use > gmail from one machine. When I use gmail from one of my other machines > I don't get this. Perhaps there is a bug on my primary machine? > > One of the mailing lists was most interesting in the way it happened. > I receive mail from the JavaMUG.org mailing list. I hardly ever reply > to these because they are mostly Java job postings. > There was a flurry of emails from some guy promoting himself, some > headhunter service or some Java tools. It looked OK, like a normal job > posting. Normally I delete these unopened due to lack of interest. I > opened this one. > I started having problems with that mailing list, and another totally > different one, shortly after opening that email. > > This just started in the last couple of months. -- 73 = Best Regards, -Geoff/W5OMR A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Tue Dec 5 06:33:39 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Tue Dec 5 06:33:51 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] anti-spam effort In-Reply-To: References: <4574A68B.5030004@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <45752EB3.3040300@futuretechsolutions.com> Message-ID: <45756723.3020001@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Robert Pearson wrote: I didn't mean to send that last one - sorry. > One of the mailing lists was most interesting in the way it happened. > I receive mail from the JavaMUG.org mailing list. I hardly ever reply > to these because they are mostly Java job postings. > There was a flurry of emails from some guy promoting himself, some > headhunter service or some Java tools. It looked OK, like a normal job > posting. Normally I delete these unopened due to lack of interest. I > opened this one. > I started having problems with that mailing list, and another totally > different one, shortly after opening that email. > > This just started in the last couple of months. What platform/OS? -- -Geoff From j at jvpappas.net Tue Dec 5 07:00:30 2006 From: j at jvpappas.net (John Pappas) Date: Tue Dec 5 07:04:31 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] ATI Radeon on a laptop In-Reply-To: <31bde60e0612041816s487254fao3ea478e5fd5e979e@mail.gmail.com> References: <79ec289f0612041340o6eb352fdp3976c8139bb559ef@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e0612041816s487254fao3ea478e5fd5e979e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1165323630.30429.82.camel@spook.abacussg.com> On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 20:16 -0600, John Ziriax wrote: > On 12/4/06, Jeremy Mann wrote: > > Hey all, I need somebody with a laptop that has an ATI Radeon Mobility > > chipset to check something for me. I need to find out if you can drive > > the external VGA port as another screen, not as a clone. I know NVIDIA > > can do this but can only find vague information online on the Radeon. > > > > Thanks! > > > > -- > > Jeremy > > > Jermey > > I have a Viao laptop with a Mobility Radeon video card running Debian unstable. > > I have to apologize for not remembering the procedure for setting it > up, but all the files came off the Debian tree. There is an ATI > Control panel (read GUI) which lets you control the internal and > external monitors. > > I ran the both monitors for a while, but the larger external monitor > won out. Here's a clip of the relevant sections of the xorg.conf > file. I found this somewhere on the internet and just fooled with it > until it worked. I have the fglrx-control, -driver, and -kernel-src > version 8.28.8-4 installed. > > Hope this helps. > > John <>> I have an IBM T43p with SUSE 10.1 and the Proprietary ATI Drivers from www2.ati.com/suse installed. The fglrx (also proprietary) control provides the needed functionality, in my case through sax2 (Suse X Config tool). > > Section "Monitor" > Identifier "Monitor0" > VendorName "Monitor Vendor" > ModelName "LCD Panel 1280x800" > Option "dpms" > HorizSync 28-103 > VertRefresh 40-110 > Gamma 1.0 1.0 1.0 > # external clone monitor > # HorizSync2 30.0 - 82.0 > # VertRefresh2 50.0 - 75.0 > # must use "xset dpms 300 0 0" for DPMS > Modeline "1400x1050" 107.85 1400 1450 1500 1999 1050 1058 1070 1150 > Modeline "1400x1050" 122.00 1400 1464 1784 1912 1050 1052 1064 1090 > -HSync -VSync > # 1400x1050 @ 74.37Hz, 81.1 kHz HSync > ModeLine "1400x1050" 155.00 1400 1464 1784 1912 1050 1052 1064 1090 > -HSync -VSync > # 1400x1050 @ 91.00Hz, 99.19 kHz HSync > ModeLine "1400x1050" 189.65 1400 1464 1784 1912 1050 1052 1064 1090 > -HSync -VSync > # 1280x1024 & 75Hz > Modeline "1280x1024-75" 135 1280 1296 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 > +HSync +VSync > # 1280x1024 & 60Hz > Modeline "1280x1024-60" 108 1280 1328 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 > +HSync +VSync > EndSection > > Section "Device" > Identifier "Videocard0" > Driver "fglrx" > VendorName "Videocard vendor" > BoardName "ATI Radeon Mobility 9600 M10" > Option "BusType" "PCI" > #0731 > ### Available Driver options are:- > ### 2D ACCELLERATION > Option "RenderAccel" "yes" # hardware Render acceleration > Option "BackinStore" "yes" # prevent artifacts > ### 3D ACCELLERATION > Option "EnablePageFlip" "yes" # Improves performance > Option "AGPFastWrite" "yes" # > Option "AGPMode" "4" # Supports AGP Nx > > # Option "CRTScreen" # ? Castillo ? (broken!) > # these "clone"s are experimental (D.J.Barry@cornell) > # turns the external monitor on even without a unit attached > Option "CloneDisplay" "2" > # syncs for the external video -- now can operate independently > Option "CloneHSync" "30-82" > Option "CloneVRefresh" "50-75" > # force an external mode -- DDC detection on some projectors does not work > # for 1024x768 on both, use "1024x786" "Modes" in "Screen" below also > # Option "CloneMode" "1280x1024" "1024x786" > # Option "NoAccel" > # Option "SWcursor" > Option "HWcursor" > Option "Dac6Bit" > Option "Dac8Bit" > # Option "ForcePCIMode" > Option "CCEPIOMode" > Option "CCENoSecurity" > Option "CCEusecTimeout" > Option "AGPSize" > Option "RingSize" > Option "VBListSize" > Option "VBSize" > # Option "UseCCEfor2D" > Option "PanelWidth" > Option "PanelHeight" > ##Option "UseFBDev" > EndSection > > Section "Screen" > Identifier "Screen0" > Device "Videocard0" > Monitor "Monitor0" > Option "DesktopSetup" "Clone" > > # Device "ATI Radeon R300" > # Monitor "LCD Panel internal" > > # 24 bits is the nice default setup > DefaultDepth 24 > DefaultFbBpp 32 > # -- OR -- > # use depth 16 if you want DRI/DRM/GL acceleration > #DefaultDepth 16 > > SubSection "Display" > Depth 8 > Modes "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > > SubSection "Display" > Depth 16 > Modes "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > > SubSection "Display" > Depth 24 > Modes "1680x1050" "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > > SubSection "Display" > Depth 32 > Modes "1680x1050" "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > EndSection > > > > -- > John From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 07:54:13 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 07:54:17 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] C++/Direct Show Dev Needed....ASAP In-Reply-To: <45755A0C.2090207@satx.rr.com> References: <456EF5A5.1000904@nvision2020.com> <45755A0C.2090207@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612050554j4e759d13nc28ae71b9b713f3a@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, John Simmons wrote: > Dean McCall wrote: > > C++ Direct Show Developers > > > > Must posses 5 years or more Direct Show experience with an Open GL > > background, Video background is a plus but not required Salary $45000 > > to $150,000 US. Must we able to work in USA or be able to be Sponsored. > > Looking for someone in the San Marcos area but willing to take > > telecommuters on a case by case basis. This is a full time position. > > If interested please respond of list... > > > > Thanks > > Dean > > > > > Not only is this completely unrelated to linux, but I've done DirectShow > programming and I hated it. It's one of the most convoluted pieces of > crap I've ever seen in my 27 years of programming. > Yeah, come to think of it, I'd be glad to help find an alternative to DirectShow for anywhere in the quoted salary range, but that's all. San Marcos is even quite a nice place. :) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From jeremymann at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 08:26:58 2006 From: jeremymann at gmail.com (Jeremy Mann) Date: Tue Dec 5 08:27:03 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] ATI Radeon on a laptop In-Reply-To: <1165323630.30429.82.camel@spook.abacussg.com> References: <79ec289f0612041340o6eb352fdp3976c8139bb559ef@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e0612041816s487254fao3ea478e5fd5e979e@mail.gmail.com> <1165323630.30429.82.camel@spook.abacussg.com> Message-ID: <79ec289f0612050626j1fe0fae6l2e9c9a5d0af25320@mail.gmail.com> Thanks guys. After googling some more I came across a website that said that you could run the external monitor port a different resolution, refresh rate and as a seperate screen. This is exactly what we're looking for. On 12/5/06, John Pappas wrote: > On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 20:16 -0600, John Ziriax wrote: > > On 12/4/06, Jeremy Mann wrote: > > > Hey all, I need somebody with a laptop that has an ATI Radeon Mobility > > > chipset to check something for me. I need to find out if you can drive > > > the external VGA port as another screen, not as a clone. I know NVIDIA > > > can do this but can only find vague information online on the Radeon. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > -- > > > Jeremy > > > > > > Jermey > > > > I have a Viao laptop with a Mobility Radeon video card running Debian unstable. > > > > I have to apologize for not remembering the procedure for setting it > > up, but all the files came off the Debian tree. There is an ATI > > Control panel (read GUI) which lets you control the internal and > > external monitors. > > > > I ran the both monitors for a while, but the larger external monitor > > won out. Here's a clip of the relevant sections of the xorg.conf > > file. I found this somewhere on the internet and just fooled with it > > until it worked. I have the fglrx-control, -driver, and -kernel-src > > version 8.28.8-4 installed. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > John > <>> > > I have an IBM T43p with SUSE 10.1 and the Proprietary ATI Drivers from > www2.ati.com/suse installed. > > The fglrx (also proprietary) control provides the needed functionality, > in my case through sax2 (Suse X Config tool). > > > > > Section "Monitor" > > Identifier "Monitor0" > > VendorName "Monitor Vendor" > > ModelName "LCD Panel 1280x800" > > Option "dpms" > > HorizSync 28-103 > > VertRefresh 40-110 > > Gamma 1.0 1.0 1.0 > > # external clone monitor > > # HorizSync2 30.0 - 82.0 > > # VertRefresh2 50.0 - 75.0 > > # must use "xset dpms 300 0 0" for DPMS > > Modeline "1400x1050" 107.85 1400 1450 1500 1999 1050 1058 1070 1150 > > Modeline "1400x1050" 122.00 1400 1464 1784 1912 1050 1052 1064 1090 > > -HSync -VSync > > # 1400x1050 @ 74.37Hz, 81.1 kHz HSync > > ModeLine "1400x1050" 155.00 1400 1464 1784 1912 1050 1052 1064 1090 > > -HSync -VSync > > # 1400x1050 @ 91.00Hz, 99.19 kHz HSync > > ModeLine "1400x1050" 189.65 1400 1464 1784 1912 1050 1052 1064 1090 > > -HSync -VSync > > # 1280x1024 & 75Hz > > Modeline "1280x1024-75" 135 1280 1296 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 > > +HSync +VSync > > # 1280x1024 & 60Hz > > Modeline "1280x1024-60" 108 1280 1328 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 > > +HSync +VSync > > EndSection > > > > Section "Device" > > Identifier "Videocard0" > > Driver "fglrx" > > VendorName "Videocard vendor" > > BoardName "ATI Radeon Mobility 9600 M10" > > Option "BusType" "PCI" > > #0731 > > ### Available Driver options are:- > > ### 2D ACCELLERATION > > Option "RenderAccel" "yes" # hardware Render acceleration > > Option "BackinStore" "yes" # prevent artifacts > > ### 3D ACCELLERATION > > Option "EnablePageFlip" "yes" # Improves performance > > Option "AGPFastWrite" "yes" # > > Option "AGPMode" "4" # Supports AGP Nx > > > > # Option "CRTScreen" # ? Castillo ? (broken!) > > # these "clone"s are experimental (D.J.Barry@cornell) > > # turns the external monitor on even without a unit attached > > Option "CloneDisplay" "2" > > # syncs for the external video -- now can operate independently > > Option "CloneHSync" "30-82" > > Option "CloneVRefresh" "50-75" > > # force an external mode -- DDC detection on some projectors does not work > > # for 1024x768 on both, use "1024x786" "Modes" in "Screen" below also > > # Option "CloneMode" "1280x1024" "1024x786" > > # Option "NoAccel" > > # Option "SWcursor" > > Option "HWcursor" > > Option "Dac6Bit" > > Option "Dac8Bit" > > # Option "ForcePCIMode" > > Option "CCEPIOMode" > > Option "CCENoSecurity" > > Option "CCEusecTimeout" > > Option "AGPSize" > > Option "RingSize" > > Option "VBListSize" > > Option "VBSize" > > # Option "UseCCEfor2D" > > Option "PanelWidth" > > Option "PanelHeight" > > ##Option "UseFBDev" > > EndSection > > > > Section "Screen" > > Identifier "Screen0" > > Device "Videocard0" > > Monitor "Monitor0" > > Option "DesktopSetup" "Clone" > > > > # Device "ATI Radeon R300" > > # Monitor "LCD Panel internal" > > > > # 24 bits is the nice default setup > > DefaultDepth 24 > > DefaultFbBpp 32 > > # -- OR -- > > # use depth 16 if you want DRI/DRM/GL acceleration > > #DefaultDepth 16 > > > > SubSection "Display" > > Depth 8 > > Modes "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > > EndSubSection > > > > SubSection "Display" > > Depth 16 > > Modes "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > > EndSubSection > > > > SubSection "Display" > > Depth 24 > > Modes "1680x1050" "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > > EndSubSection > > > > SubSection "Display" > > Depth 32 > > Modes "1680x1050" "1280x800" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > > EndSubSection > > EndSection > > > > > > > > -- > > John > > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- Jeremy From j at jvpappas.net Tue Dec 5 08:57:38 2006 From: j at jvpappas.net (John Pappas) Date: Tue Dec 5 09:01:34 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] SCOX going low In-Reply-To: <1c4800b3b0cf407780b9a194c1afead3.scs@worldlinkisp.com> References: <1c4800b3b0cf407780b9a194c1afead3.scs@worldlinkisp.com> Message-ID: <1165330659.30429.113.camel@spook.abacussg.com> On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 15:12 -0500, scs@worldlinkisp.com wrote: > Even more graphic IS --> < finance.yahoo . com > SCOX > and pulling up a three or six month chart. Try the 4 year. You can see the whole timeline of the suit. From j at jvpappas.net Tue Dec 5 09:14:20 2006 From: j at jvpappas.net (John Pappas) Date: Tue Dec 5 09:18:16 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Connecting to Wireless Networks In-Reply-To: <2d1185c80612012157q49df7e1h9f0f4c0dbd32add@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d1185c80611261526v12acb4c6rc9c8b8557607ec20@mail.gmail.com> <8C8E00CA5C0663A-7C4-2AD@mblk-d46.sysops.aol.com> <2d1185c80611270604u1919268dm46142785617e125@mail.gmail.com> <1164646269.1960.19.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <1164731678.1960.165.camel@spook.abacussg.com> <2d1185c80612012157q49df7e1h9f0f4c0dbd32add@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1165331660.30429.115.camel@spook.abacussg.com> On Fri, 2006-12-01 at 23:57 -0600, Matt Kinsel wrote: > Thanks for the help everybody. I've compiled everyone's instructions into > the following procedure of commands below: > > > ifconfig eth0 up (turns on card) > > iwlist eth0 scan (lists wireless networks in range) > > iwconfig eth0 essid "RouterName" key "BunchOfNumbersIfNeeded" mode managed > (creates connection with desired access point) > > dhclient eth1 -r (drops old IP) > > dhclient eth1 -l (obtains new IP) > > iwconfig eth0 (verify connection with access point) > > dhclient -q eth0 & (don't know why, but it's required) > > > Can y'all verify that I got these correct? I will try them out as soon as I > get a chance. > > Thanks again. > Seems about right. Let us know if it helps. > > On 11/28/06, John Pappas wrote: > > > > On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 07:49 -0600, twistedpickles wrote: > > > On 11/27/06, twistedpickles wrote: > > > > I run FC5 on a dell D620 and as mentioned in earlier post I also use > > > > iwlist eth1 scan # to can for wifi networks > > > > iwconfig eth1 essid "WapName" key "If_Applies" > > > > iwconfig eth1 #verify connection > > > > dclient -q eth1 & #won't work without this > > > > > > correction on the above: > > > > > > iwlist eth1 scanning # scan for networks > > > iwconfig eth1 essid "WapName" key "If_Applies" mode managed > > > > > > If I am changing from one wap to a different wap and where on had a > > > key and now doesn't then: > > > > > > iwconfig eth1 essid "NewWap" key off mode managed > > > dhclient eth1 -r # release IP > > > dhclient eth1 -l # renew IP > > > > I thought that FC used a different DHCP client implementation. Thanks > > for the info! > > > > John > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > SATLUG mailing list > > SATLUG@satlug.org > > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > > From j at jvpappas.net Tue Dec 5 09:18:00 2006 From: j at jvpappas.net (John Pappas) Date: Tue Dec 5 09:21:56 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] AoE questions In-Reply-To: <20061204050220.GA13050@spoonix.com> References: <20061119023436.GA31639@spoonix.com> <1163996123.26991.126.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <20061120070425.GA11677@spoonix.com> <1164044711.26991.230.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <20061121010410.GA18806@spoonix.com> <20061202203900.GD8092@nexus.subspacefield.org> <20061204050220.GA13050@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <1165331880.30429.118.camel@spook.abacussg.com> On Sun, 2006-12-03 at 23:02 -0600, K. Spoon wrote: > On Sat, Dec 02, 2006 at 02:39:00PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > > Is there any reason to do 1+0 instead of 0+1? > > raid 10 is a little more fault tolerant... you can lose 2 disks (a and d > or b and c) before the system goes offline, and you don't have to spend > time rebuilding from parity like in raid 5. > > If you've got quick access to the server and can address failures > quickly, however, it's a moot point though... either one will work. Agreed. Esp if mdadm is monitoring and sends email (or SMS to Cell) upon failure. > -- > K. Spoon From travis+ml-satlug at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 11:07:29 2006 From: travis+ml-satlug at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:07:36 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061205170729.GC24855@subspacefield.org> On Mon, Nov 27, 2006 at 03:21:38AM -0600, Robert Pearson wrote: > >From the post at Oloh: > "Despite the buzz around sexy new frameworks like Rails and Django, > PHP is more dominant than ever." Ah yes, popularity; the hallmark of mediocrity. If we judged merit by popularity, we'd be WINLUG. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 11:14:29 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:14:34 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] AoE results In-Reply-To: <456B49FA.9000000@shlrm.org> References: <20061127123012.GA11289@spoonix.com> <456B231E.30705@gmail.com> <20061127202052.GB14442@spoonix.com> <456B49FA.9000000@shlrm.org> Message-ID: <20061205171429.GG24855@subspacefield.org> On Mon, Nov 27, 2006 at 02:26:34PM -0600, David Kowis wrote: > kain:/var/spool/sorcery /var/spool/sorcery nfs > defaults,proto=tcp,rsize=32768,wsize=32768 0 0 > > that's the settings I've found to perform the best in nfs. Note that > it's nfs over TCP. I think I'm running nfsv4 as well. Anways, that's > performed the best for me when it comes to just about anything over nfs. Why would TCP perform better than UDP unless you're dropping packets between the hosts, or there are a lot of collisions? UDP has less overhead per packet. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From pixelnate at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 11:16:05 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (Nate Turnage) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:16:08 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Need some help with SVN Message-ID: Actually, I was wondering if anybody has a favorite site that explains how SVN work in laymans terms, sort of an Idiot's guide to SVN. I am preparing to get a little deeper into RoR on a site I am building, and I want to use Capistrano which requires a Subversion server. I have never used on before, so I need sort of a basic tutorial to get my feet wet. Thanks, Nate From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 11:16:18 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:16:21 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77be04730612050916p6e322443g7fbd906146dc9fb7@mail.gmail.com> On 11/27/06, R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > On Nov 27, 2006, at 3:21 AM, Robert Pearson wrote: > > >> From the post at Oloh: > > "Despite the buzz around sexy new frameworks like Rails and Django, > > PHP is more dominant than ever." > > [Article source] > > <> > > Disclaimer: I hate Ruby, I hate PHP, but most of all I hate rails > (and those garsh darned trains that use them!) ;) > > What complete pseudo-science, new lines of code is a miserable means > of measuring productivity, or growth. Not to mention, in the past > three years, PHP has become the "common" server side scripting > language to where the crappiest of the crappiest hosting plans still > provide the capability to serve PHP pages. Don't forget about the approx 1400 entries in CVE. ;) > Statistics should always be taken with a grain of salt, PHP was > initially publicly released in 1995, Ruby on Rails was initially > publicly released in 2004. > > > That said, I'm pleased with the progress being made with server-side > C#: http://mono-project.com/Mod_mono > mod_mono, eh? Sounds like a much better place than mod_python to try getting zope.publisher to work.. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From pixelnate at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 11:22:31 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (Nate Turnage) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:22:35 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/27/06, R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > > Statistics should always be taken with a grain of salt, PHP was > initially publicly released in 1995, Ruby on Rails was initially > publicly released in 2004. Ruby was also released in 1995 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_language#History ), and Rails was released as v.1 on Dec. 13, 2005 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_On_Rails#History). While it is Rails that has made Ruby so popular, Ruby has existed about as long as PHP. ~Nate From cd_satl at futuretechsolutions.com Tue Dec 5 11:23:13 2006 From: cd_satl at futuretechsolutions.com (Charles D Hogan) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:28:46 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] anti-spam effort In-Reply-To: References: <4574A68B.5030004@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <45752EB3.3040300@futuretechsolutions.com> Message-ID: <4575AB01.7030003@futuretechsolutions.com> Robert Pearson wrote: > On 12/5/06, Charles D Hogan wrote: > >> The problem is not that the spam is going through the list, as the list >> is moderated, but rather some clever spammer has found a way to harvest >> our addresses. Looking at the message archives on satlug.org, it >> wouldn't be all that difficult to REGEX the "me at here.com" for the >> sender back to "me@here.com". Take a look at the html of a handful of >> messages in the archive, you will see a pattern easy to REGEX for that. >> A simple script calling wget, and then running the results through a >> fairly simple REGEX will get you all the useable addresses that post to >> the list. >> >> The address I use for the mailing list is an alias that has never been >> used for anything but this list. Yet it still receives SPAM. It never >> received spam while I was just lurking, only after my first post. >> >> One way to get around the spammers would be to set up one address that >> you use to post to the list, and another that you only receive to. Once >> your "post from" address is confirmed by the list, quietly drop all mail >> going to that address into /dev/null. Never use the receive address for >> sending anything, and make sure that it is not a common word. I would >> probably do that, but my spam filters on my mail server, and here at >> home, are aggressive enough to keep the majority of spam out. So little >> of the spam going to my satlug only address makes it through that it >> would be more of a bother for me to do that than delete the ones I get. >> Obviously, this won't work if you still wish to get mail on the >> address that the vile vermin have already gotten ahold of. >> >> The first spam in about a week or 2 that made it to my satlug only >> address arrived just this evening, so it has not yet made it to the >> rubbish bin. I am posting the pertinent headers, and you will notice, >> it never even hit the satlug server. >> >> Charles > > > Do you use gmail? I use gmail exclusively. > > I visit lots of Web sites, I am on several mailing lists, and I am > having the same type of problem. > > I am getting very clever SPAM constructed with words that I have only > used in posting to a Web site or replying on a mailing list. This > indicates to me that it is browser and platform based. I normally use > gmail from one machine. When I use gmail from one of my other machines > I don't get this. Perhaps there is a bug on my primary machine? > > One of the mailing lists was most interesting in the way it happened. > I receive mail from the JavaMUG.org mailing list. I hardly ever reply > to these because they are mostly Java job postings. > There was a flurry of emails from some guy promoting himself, some > headhunter service or some Java tools. It looked OK, like a normal job > posting. Normally I delete these unopened due to lack of interest. I > opened this one. > I started having problems with that mailing list, and another totally > different one, shortly after opening that email. > > This just started in the last couple of months. I do use gmail, but not for mailing lists. I use the shop's server for the majority of my e-mails. From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 11:28:52 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:28:56 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, Nate Turnage wrote: > On 11/27/06, R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > > > > > > Statistics should always be taken with a grain of salt, PHP was > > initially publicly released in 1995, Ruby on Rails was initially > > publicly released in 2004. > > > > Ruby was also released in 1995 ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_language#History ), and Rails was released > as v.1 on Dec. 13, 2005 ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_On_Rails#History). While it is Rails > that has made Ruby so popular, Ruby has existed about > as long as PHP. > Ruby's initial popularity was stymied by Python - it's good to keep this in mind. Ruby was something that Python programmers talked about learning if they ever got some free time, for the most part. Of course, Rails or no Rails, there is a great deal more use of Python than Ruby. I believe Python recently replaced Scheme or somesuch as MIT's official robotics language, for one, and there seems to be a great deal more research going on with Python as a base: * http://ironpython.org/ (Microsoft hired a Python developer to tune their dynamic language runtime) * http://pypy.codespeak.net/ (A version of Python, written in Python, which can generate itself in a number of languages.) SLOC is a very bad measure, though. I found out recently that Plone, with all of its' 50+ language translations and supporting frameworks, if you include all of Zope2 and Zope3, stretches toward 5 Million SLOC. The truth is, we'd like to cut that in ten and keep one piece, I'm pretty sure. Code is not an asset, it's a liability. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 11:32:23 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:32:27 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] architecture for multiple LANs Message-ID: <20061205173223.GH24855@subspacefield.org> Hey all, someone recently gave me a GigE card, and so I felt compelled to set up a GigE LAN. Now my current network is 100MBps, with a managed switch, but the GigE managed switches are still pricey. So I bought a small GigE hub, and then I had to decide how to architect it. At first I had the two connected, but I was getting warnings because the GigE NICs were responding to the 100MBps IPs and vice-versa. What I ended up doing was making them seperate LANs, seperate IP blocks, and creating a new domain for the Gig network so that Gig hosts would try the Gig ports on other systems before the 100MBps IPs (due to search order in resolv.conf). I wasn't able to make all of the Gig IPs Gig though; some systems needed to be on there (firewall), but were too old for the Gig PCI cards. Of course, the Gig network might be saturated and the 100Mbps not, so this is not a perfect form of optimization.... anyone address similar ideas in their network design? PS: NFS is a heck of a lot faster now. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 11:44:07 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:44:08 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] AoE results In-Reply-To: <79ec289f0611271756g7e26c6aencaf2aa571740aa7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061127123012.GA11289@spoonix.com> <456B231E.30705@gmail.com> <20061127202052.GB14442@spoonix.com> <1164677580.1960.64.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <79ec289f0611271756g7e26c6aencaf2aa571740aa7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061205174407.GA20645@subspacefield.org> On Mon, Nov 27, 2006 at 07:56:09PM -0600, Jeremy Mann wrote: > Not to put down AoE, its probably good for NAS storage. It's more like a SAN, actually. Except cheaper. It's perfect for allowing, say, a Windows client use NTFS on a drive that's really exported from a Linux file server. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 11:45:29 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:45:35 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> Justizin wrote: > SLOC is a very bad measure, though. What do you think is better? -- Bruce From mikeaw at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 11:48:13 2006 From: mikeaw at gmail.com (Mike Wallace) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:48:20 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Need some help with SVN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4154519d0612050948g40e2c808g5419f75011fe0fa2@mail.gmail.com> http://svnbook.red-bean.com -Mike From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 11:48:54 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:48:55 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] file server design Message-ID: <20061205174854.GB20645@subspacefield.org> By the way, I've been reading storagemojo.com a bit and came up with this design for a file server. Basically, the problem I had with LVM was that I had to operate in a one-dimensional space when resizing filesystems. So I read about this trick; make each filesystem a loopback onto a file, that is then stored on a file system. Export the loopback filesystems as AoE or iSCSI. Now, to resize, or copy, or anything, you can use the files instead of a block device. You can expand one "filesystem" or the other without doing _any_ shuffling about. And you can probably even create them as sparse files! There is an extra layer of overhead, like when you make a database reside on a file system instead of a partition/block device, but it's a small penalty compared to the cost (in time) of resizing when _not_ using this paradigm. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 11:52:10 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:52:13 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > Justizin wrote: > > > SLOC is a very bad measure, though. > > What do you think is better? > Anything. ;) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 11:53:39 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 11:53:42 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Need some help with SVN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77be04730612050953t256b9ce3tfee62756219d6198@mail.gmail.com> If you use CentOS, RHEL, or debian you can install svn from packages, and I strongly suggest that you do so if possible, unless you are looking to become a subversion consultant. ;) Unless you have to, also, I'd suggest using mod_dav_svn vs. svnserve On 12/5/06, Nate Turnage wrote: > Actually, I was wondering if anybody has a favorite site that explains how > SVN work in laymans terms, sort of an Idiot's guide to SVN. I am preparing > to get a little deeper into RoR on a site I am building, and I want to use > Capistrano which requires a Subversion server. I have never used on before, > so I need sort of a basic tutorial to get my feet wet. > > > Thanks, > Nate > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 12:02:29 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:02:32 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612051002h4591bcf0tb2345c62673f61f8@mail.gmail.com> Okay .. I'll elaborate. :) The question you ask is sort of off-kilter IMO, because it assumes that having some measure, even if inversely correct, is better than having none, and that you could possibly surmise the quality of a software system without using it. I beleive both of those assumptions are incorrect. For instance, however many SLOC are in Vista, all I know is that the developers have a bad track record. I would have to see amazing things in order for my mind to change. Also, as Tyler mentioned, SLOC is backwards. I would only use SLOC to promote something by saying it is either less SLOC or less SLOC specific to a given purpose. For instance, I often use a bug tracker for Plone called Poi. Perhaps there are about 5mil SLOC on the filesystem when it's all installed, but the code specific to this purpose is very small - almost all the code in use when I access this application is also used for other applications, so the value of each of those lines increases. I certainly don't often worry about browser issues in the scope of improving features for bug trackers. So, I would never say proudly that Plone is 5mil SLOC and that, therefore, it is superior to anything lesser. I would simply say that it is 5mil SLOC and that I challenge you to accomplish as much, as well, with less. We could probably cut our codebase in half, but we'd have to drop support for millions of lines of existing products, many of which were actually designed for Zope2, rather than specifically for Plone. So, I could challenge your question with another: What in the hell does a raw SLOC count tell you, at all? ;) On 12/5/06, Justizin wrote: > On 12/5/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > > Justizin wrote: > > > > > SLOC is a very bad measure, though. > > > > What do you think is better? > > > > Anything. ;) > > -- > Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect > ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter > http://www.siggraph.org/ > -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 12:06:07 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:06:15 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] file server design In-Reply-To: <20061205174854.GB20645@subspacefield.org> References: <20061205174854.GB20645@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <77be04730612051006y1ff4e7eey934d2a27e2b4e8b5@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, Travis H. wrote: > By the way, I've been reading storagemojo.com a bit and came up with > this design for a file server. > > Basically, the problem I had with LVM was that I had to operate in > a one-dimensional space when resizing filesystems. > > So I read about this trick; make each filesystem a loopback onto a file, > that is then stored on a file system. Export the loopback filesystems > as AoE or iSCSI. Now, to resize, or copy, or anything, you can use the files > instead of a block device. You can expand one "filesystem" or the other > without doing _any_ shuffling about. And you can probably even create > them as sparse files! > > There is an extra layer of overhead, like when you make a database reside > on a file system instead of a partition/block device, but it's a small > penalty compared to the cost (in time) of resizing when _not_ using this > paradigm. I disagree staunchly that it would be a small penalty - you would have horrible fragmentation unless you were on OSX with hot file sync or whatever. You could, however, put a single loopback file into an LVM volume, then create a larger LVM volume, move the data, and resize2fs or whatever. Being non-contiguous is bad news. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 12:11:10 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:11:13 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> Justizin wrote: > On 12/5/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: >> Justizin wrote: >> >> > SLOC is a very bad measure, though. >> >> What do you think is better? >> > > Anything. ;) OK. I choose apples. Actually, my question was serious. SLOC has been bad-mouthed since *at least* 1970. The problem is that I haven't heard of anything better. Function points was once suggested, but that was designed for COBOL and most people like it less than SLOC. I can go on and on detailing the problems with SLOC as a measure of productivity. However, it *is* a better measure than nothing. I just have not heard of anything better. -- Bruce From pixelnate at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 12:12:08 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (Nate Turnage) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:12:10 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Need some help with SVN In-Reply-To: <4154519d0612050948g40e2c808g5419f75011fe0fa2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4154519d0612050948g40e2c808g5419f75011fe0fa2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, Mike Wallace wrote: > > http://svnbook.red-bean.com > > Thanks, ~Nate From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 12:25:10 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:25:11 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages In-Reply-To: <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061205182510.GC20645@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:11:10PM -0600, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > I can go on and on detailing the problems with SLOC as a measure of > productivity. However, it *is* a better measure than nothing. I just > have not heard of anything better. Is productivity what we're talking about, when it comes to languages eating things for breakfast? Certainly there's a lot more PHP code out there, no doubt about that. It's very easy, but it's hard to use securely, much less properly, and the bar is set _very_ low. For that matter, there's more HTML than PHP probably... I'm not sure why that should matter. I'd have to agree with Justizin, lines of code is something you should try to minimize, if you were to hold the functionality the same. For example, take a typical shell script, let's say the "configure" script for EMACS. How many SLOC would it take to do everything in that script in C? I'd wager it takes a buttload of SLOCs... so many that you'd be a fool to do it that way. Not to mention assembly. So SLOC is something I'd want to minimize for a typical language, and I doubt you can convince me otherwise. Oh, and Justizin is dead-on about Ruby being something python developers talk about learning if they get time, at least in my case. My primary language is python, but I've heard good things about Ruby from everyone who has used both, including HD Moore... he recently re-wrote metasploit in Ruby, and some of the crypto code he showed me looked amazingly simple. Actually my friend Doug did a language "shootout" over some 15-25 problems (made slashdot), and his favorite overall was Ocaml. He said that it performed almost as well as C on most problems, and actually _outperformed_ C code on some problems, and his SLOC for other projects actually shrunk the more he worked on them. How many projects have you improved _and_ simplified at the same time? That's an amazing thing when it happens, and if it happens often with Ocaml, that's the bee's knees! -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 12:29:04 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:29:04 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] file server design In-Reply-To: <77be04730612051006y1ff4e7eey934d2a27e2b4e8b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061205174854.GB20645@subspacefield.org> <77be04730612051006y1ff4e7eey934d2a27e2b4e8b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061205182904.GD20645@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:06:07PM -0600, Justizin wrote: > I disagree staunchly that it would be a small penalty - you would have > horrible fragmentation unless you were on OSX with hot file sync or > whatever. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. > You could, however, put a single loopback file into an LVM volume, > then create a larger LVM volume, move the data, and resize2fs or > whatever. It's non-trivial to resize PVs. I'd have to create a new PV that's bigger than my extant one as you said, but I don't have that kind of room. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From pixelnate at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 12:31:35 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (Nate Turnage) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:31:38 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Need some help with SVN In-Reply-To: <77be04730612050953t256b9ce3tfee62756219d6198@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050953t256b9ce3tfee62756219d6198@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, Justizin wrote: > > If you use CentOS, RHEL, or debian you can install svn from packages, > and I strongly suggest that you do so if possible, unless you are > looking to become a subversion consultant. ;) > > Unless you have to, also, I'd suggest using mod_dav_svn vs. svnserve Actually it is installed as part of a hosting account I have with Railsplayground. They just don't have a lot of documentation on how to use it. I am planning on setting up a local server at work once I get a handle on how to use it properly. We'll probably use Ubuntu or SuSE on our box. Thanks for the tips. ~Nate From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 12:33:54 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:33:56 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] file server design In-Reply-To: <20061205182904.GD20645@subspacefield.org> References: <20061205174854.GB20645@subspacefield.org> <77be04730612051006y1ff4e7eey934d2a27e2b4e8b5@mail.gmail.com> <20061205182904.GD20645@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061205183354.GE20645@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:29:04PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > Oh, yeah, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. Wait a minute, the more I think about it, you're suggesting that the exported file system to the underlying file system would be randomized, right? Well if you didn't use sparse files, then you'd allocate all of the blocks at once, and on ext2/3 and FFS and most filesystems I know deeply, they will try to make that allocation contiguous. Now if you extended them, you'd probably have a different location for the new extent, but this shouldn't be an everyday occurence. I figure this is done once in a while, just because you didn't predict that one would grow as fast as it does or something. Or did you mean something else? -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 12:42:59 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:43:01 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Need some help with SVN In-Reply-To: <77be04730612050953t256b9ce3tfee62756219d6198@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050953t256b9ce3tfee62756219d6198@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061205184259.GA5193@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 11:53:39AM -0600, Justizin wrote: > Unless you have to, also, I'd suggest using mod_dav_svn vs. svnserve I've never used either, just ssh+svn... can you explain what DAV is and why dav_svn is better? -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 12:42:57 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:43:08 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] file server design In-Reply-To: <20061205183354.GE20645@subspacefield.org> References: <20061205174854.GB20645@subspacefield.org> <77be04730612051006y1ff4e7eey934d2a27e2b4e8b5@mail.gmail.com> <20061205182904.GD20645@subspacefield.org> <20061205183354.GE20645@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <77be04730612051042w307fbf57t3c337bc8456c8b15@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:29:04PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > > Oh, yeah, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. > > Wait a minute, the more I think about it, you're suggesting that the > exported file system to the underlying file system would be randomized, > right? Well if you didn't use sparse files, then you'd allocate all of > the blocks at once, and on ext2/3 and FFS and most filesystems I know > deeply, they will try to make that allocation contiguous. Now if you > extended them, you'd probably have a different location for the new > extent, but this shouldn't be an everyday occurence. I figure this > is done once in a while, just because you didn't predict that one would > grow as fast as it does or something. > > Or did you mean something else? You're right, only sparse files would have this problem, but I think you'd spend more time jumping through hoops to make resized volumes contiguous than to simple umount an LVM volume and relocate its' contents to a larger partition. It would all depend on the goals. If you had a lot of memory for IO cache - either on the controller or in main mem, you might not care so much for files that are often accessed, but if you want to seek around a data set many times the size of your main mem, it'll still be an issue IMO. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From kell at spoonix.com Tue Dec 5 12:44:40 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:44:52 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Need some help with SVN In-Reply-To: References: <77be04730612050953t256b9ce3tfee62756219d6198@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061205184439.GA27856@spoonix.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:31:35PM -0600, Nate Turnage wrote: > On 12/5/06, Justizin wrote: > > > >If you use CentOS, RHEL, or debian you can install svn from packages, > >and I strongly suggest that you do so if possible, unless you are > >looking to become a subversion consultant. ;) > > > >Unless you have to, also, I'd suggest using mod_dav_svn vs. svnserve > > > > Actually it is installed as part of a hosting account I have with > Railsplayground. They just don't have a lot of documentation on how to use > it. > > I am planning on setting up a local server at work once I get a handle on > how to use it properly. We'll probably use Ubuntu or SuSE on our box. > > Thanks for the tips. One more, free of charge... when you setup the SVN repos, use the filesystem as your backend instead of bdb. svnadmin create --fs-type fsfs /path/to/repos The Berkely DB backend seems to get stuck for whatever reason and corrupts the repository. -- K. Spoon From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 12:45:29 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:45:32 2006 Subject: SLOC was Re: [SATLUG] PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <77be04730612051002h4591bcf0tb2345c62673f61f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612051002h4591bcf0tb2345c62673f61f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4575BE49.7070907@gmail.com> Justizin wrote: > So, I could challenge your question with another: > > What in the hell does a raw SLOC count tell you, at all? ;) OK, now we are getting somewhere. Of course SLOC by itself is not definitive. Its like saying that a book has 100 pages or 1000 pages. It says nothing about the language, content, quality of writing, redundancy, importance, etc of the book. What SLOC does is give you a measure of size. This measure of size can used to manage software development and maintenance. Studies have shown that SLOC written per day is fairly constant for an individual programmer regardless of language (but not regardless of application domain). Individual programmer productivity also falls into a range that can be measured. If you can estimate the size of a project by various measures, such as expert estimation, comparison with other similar projects, etc, you can estimate the time and number of developers needed to write or maintain a project. Is this method perfect? No, of course not. Is it better than a wild guess? Almost certainly. Is there something better? In some specific domains, perhaps, but I don't know of any that are better as a first order estimation of size. Perhaps it would be better to to discuss what exactly *is* a SLOC. In many ways it is like a sentence. It produces a thought. Programmers think in terms of writing "lines of code" -- not characters, not punctuation, not identifiers. For instance, if I write: a = b * 10; that is a thought. You understand it. I understand it. We communicate with each other. The compiler breaks this down and produces several machine instructions, bu that is irrelevant to the thought processes of programmers. In the same way, if I do: c = (char*)malloc(1000); or even:

When in the course of human events...

you understand these too. They also conveys a thought, but do a lot more than the first example. Measuring lines of code is not trivial. It is far more than doing: wc -l *.c Do you count blank lines? Do you count comments? What about included (or copied) code? Modified code? The bottom line is that SLOC is like most measures. It can be used for valid purposes or misused. It is much better when used within a single organization with a well thought out definition. The issues go far beyond "good" or "bad". -- Bruce From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 12:48:38 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:48:39 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] file server design In-Reply-To: <77be04730612051042w307fbf57t3c337bc8456c8b15@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061205174854.GB20645@subspacefield.org> <77be04730612051006y1ff4e7eey934d2a27e2b4e8b5@mail.gmail.com> <20061205182904.GD20645@subspacefield.org> <20061205183354.GE20645@subspacefield.org> <77be04730612051042w307fbf57t3c337bc8456c8b15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061205184838.GA8161@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:42:57PM -0600, Justizin wrote: > You're right, only sparse files would have this problem, but I think > you'd spend more time jumping through hoops to make resized volumes > contiguous than to simple umount an LVM volume and relocate its' > contents to a larger partition. Your same arguments would seem to apply to placing, say, MySQL databases on an ext2/3 filesystem as well, yet that seems to be the norm and not the exception. > It would all depend on the goals. If you had a lot of memory for IO > cache - either on the controller or in main mem, you might not care so > much for files that are often accessed, but if you want to seek around > a data set many times the size of your main mem, it'll still be an > issue IMO. I think, the system administration costs may outweigh the performance costs of using raw partitions always, but I suppose it'd be worth benchmarking to see what the performance overhead is after all, and make a decision about it with that in hand. I have mostly completed my second file server, so perhaps I can do some measurements before loading it up with data. Oh, and I took a cue from google, and I am doing (software?) RAID-10 this time instead of software RAID 5... basically, if you look at the costs in terms of number of reads/writes, RAID 1 has 5 beat. Since disk I/O bandwidth is far more expensive than capacity, I think this is a wise trade-off. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 12:50:17 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:50:18 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Need some help with SVN In-Reply-To: <20061205184439.GA27856@spoonix.com> References: <77be04730612050953t256b9ce3tfee62756219d6198@mail.gmail.com> <20061205184439.GA27856@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <20061205185017.GB8161@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:44:40PM -0600, K. Spoon wrote: > One more, free of charge... when you setup the SVN repos, use the > filesystem as your backend instead of bdb. > > svnadmin create --fs-type fsfs /path/to/repos > > The Berkely DB backend seems to get stuck for whatever reason and > corrupts the repository. Ugh! I never heard of that happening. Is it a Linux thing? I ask because I've never had problems on FreeBSD. But I may switch, if it applies there too... not much worse than losing the repo.... no performance gain is worth that. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From kell at spoonix.com Tue Dec 5 12:53:29 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:53:41 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Need some help with SVN In-Reply-To: <20061205184259.GA5193@subspacefield.org> References: <77be04730612050953t256b9ce3tfee62756219d6198@mail.gmail.com> <20061205184259.GA5193@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061205185329.GB27856@spoonix.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:42:59PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 11:53:39AM -0600, Justizin wrote: > > Unless you have to, also, I'd suggest using mod_dav_svn vs. svnserve > > I've never used either, just ssh+svn... can you explain what DAV is and > why dav_svn is better? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebDAV The short version is that it's a way for you to treat a directory on a webserver as if it were a local directory. You can write/delete files, create/delete directories, set properties, etc. The reasons mod_dav_svn is handy are: 1) your import/exports are going out over HTTP (or HTTPS), so... no funky firewall configs to deal with 2) it can use apache's authentication mechanisms (ie, couple it with mod_auth_ldap protection on the repository's root) 3) any svn client can use it (for the Windows weenies on your team) -- K. Spoon From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 13:00:57 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 13:01:00 2006 Subject: SLOC was Re: [SATLUG] PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <4575BE49.7070907@gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612051002h4591bcf0tb2345c62673f61f8@mail.gmail.com> <4575BE49.7070907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612051100q4cf295ech859f07067a3baaf5@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > Justizin wrote: > > > So, I could challenge your question with another: > > > > What in the hell does a raw SLOC count tell you, at all? ;) > > OK, now we are getting somewhere. > > Of course SLOC by itself is not definitive. Its like saying that a book > has 100 pages or 1000 pages. It says nothing about the language, > content, quality of writing, redundancy, importance, etc of the book. > > What SLOC does is give you a measure of size. This measure of size can > used to manage software development and maintenance. Studies have shown > that SLOC written per day is fairly constant for an individual > programmer regardless of language (but not regardless of application > domain). Individual programmer productivity also falls into a range > that can be measured. If you can estimate the size of a project by > various measures, such as expert estimation, comparison with other > similar projects, etc, you can estimate the time and number of > developers needed to write or maintain a project. Yes, SLOC could be a useful factor somewhere in the "planning allocation of resources" realm, but it has nothing to do with quality. In fact, a system with more SLOC will require more people to accomplish less. Many large Plone deployments are managed by a single person. Also, this assumes that you will need to write or maintain a large portion of code. Plone has thousands of people contributing to it, so even though I am responsible for large sites with millions of lines of code running underneath, well, I'm also not individually responsible for every line of kernel code, or the c library - I'm only responsible for what they do, choosing good versions of them, and if I'm displeased with their behaviour - something which doesn't happen often - then I am free to dip in. Deploying Plone does not imply maintaining 5mil SLOC. Also, I think we were talking about SLOC wrt "amount written for PHP vs. Rails". So, saying: "More lines of code have been written in my language!" Is entirely invalid, and you'll never convince me otherwise. :) > Is this method perfect? No, of course not. Is it better than a wild > guess? Almost certainly. Is there something better? In some specific > domains, perhaps, but I don't know of any that are better as a first > order estimation of size. > > Perhaps it would be better to to discuss what exactly *is* a SLOC. In > many ways it is like a sentence. It produces a thought. Programmers > think in terms of writing "lines of code" -- not characters, not > punctuation, not identifiers. For instance, if I write: > > a = b * 10; > > that is a thought. You understand it. I understand it. We communicate > with each other. The compiler breaks this down and produces several > machine instructions, bu that is irrelevant to the thought processes of > programmers. > > In the same way, if I do: > > c = (char*)malloc(1000); > > or even: > >

When in the course of human events...

> > you understand these too. They also conveys a thought, but do a lot > more than the first example. > > Measuring lines of code is not trivial. It is far more than doing: > > wc -l *.c > > Do you count blank lines? Do you count comments? What about included > (or copied) code? Modified code? > > The bottom line is that SLOC is like most measures. It can be used for > valid purposes or misused. It is much better when used within a single > organization with a well thought out definition. The issues go far > beyond "good" or "bad". > What's interesting is that the SLOC argument ignores the fact that many programmers today attack redesigns in hopes of significantly reducing code. Anyway, what's important is what an application does, whether it does it well, and reliably, and how much it actually costs to maintain. It cannot be said that for each n SLOC y dollars will be spent, and that's truly a naive way of estimating work IMO. If I were competing for work with someone who did this, I would eat them alive. ;) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From kell at spoonix.com Tue Dec 5 13:03:36 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Tue Dec 5 13:03:45 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Need some help with SVN In-Reply-To: <20061205185017.GB8161@subspacefield.org> References: <77be04730612050953t256b9ce3tfee62756219d6198@mail.gmail.com> <20061205184439.GA27856@spoonix.com> <20061205185017.GB8161@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061205190336.GC27856@spoonix.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:50:17PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:44:40PM -0600, K. Spoon wrote: > > The Berkely DB backend seems to get stuck for whatever reason and > > corrupts the repository. > > Ugh! I never heard of that happening. Is it a Linux thing? > I ask because I've never had problems on FreeBSD. But I may > switch, if it applies there too... not much worse than losing > the repo.... no performance gain is worth that. Actually, I suspect it's a glibc TLS thing... But I gots no proof. :( I've only ever seen it happen under Linux, but I don't spend a lot of time with any of the BSDs. http://www.spoonix.org/blog/2005/11/13/svn-migration-to-fsfs/ The good news is that if it pops up, you can recover fairly easily. I just hit some situation where it was being triggered with each commit and haven't used bdb since. -- K. Spoon From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 13:06:03 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Tue Dec 5 13:06:06 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages In-Reply-To: <20061205182510.GC20645@subspacefield.org> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061205182510.GC20645@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <4575C31B.3000104@gmail.com> Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 12:11:10PM -0600, Bruce Dubbs wrote: >> I can go on and on detailing the problems with SLOC as a measure of >> productivity. However, it *is* a better measure than nothing. I just >> have not heard of anything better. > Certainly there's a lot more PHP code out there, no doubt about that. > It's very easy, but it's hard to use securely, much less properly, > and the bar is set _very_ low. For that matter, there's more HTML > than PHP probably... I'm not sure why that should matter. > > I'd have to agree with Justizin, lines of code is something you > should try to minimize, if you were to hold the functionality the > same. If you want to mimimize SLOC, have you ever looked at Forth? :) There have been all sorts of studies that agree that the more you can do with a line of code, the more "productive" you are. There are other issues too. You don't write a kernel driver in perl or as a bash script. You don't write a word processor in assembly. The problem with misusing PHP as a web application is not, IMO, due to PHP. It is more that the users don't understand HTTP (and possibly mysql) and how it can be misused. This is especially true because relatively intelligent people with no training can do "something" with PHP. Most people can fly an airplane for a while without much training. Its just easy to get into trouble (Takeoff is optional, landing is mandatory.) What are the options? You can increase safety by removing functionality, but experts then will find it difficult to do what they want. That goes pretty much against the Unix philosophy. The idea here is the responsibility should be placed on the programmer/user, not the language developer. Now, as root, on your system, do: rm -rf /* Bash (or rm) certainly lets you do that. Should this be disallowed? -- Bruce From bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com Tue Dec 5 13:17:22 2006 From: bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com (Alex Bartonek) Date: Tue Dec 5 13:17:24 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages In-Reply-To: <4575C31B.3000104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <243467.57541.qm@web55612.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Bruce Dubbs wrote: > Most people can fly an airplane for a while > without much training. I hope so.. I'll find out Saturday.. lol -Alex ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 13:27:21 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 13:27:23 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages In-Reply-To: <4575C31B.3000104@gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061205182510.GC20645@subspacefield.org> <4575C31B.3000104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061205192721.GD8161@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 01:06:03PM -0600, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > If you want to mimimize SLOC, have you ever looked at Forth? :) I've heard about it, and heard that a FORTH program can be smaller than a hand-crafted assembly program, and that the Mac firmware uses it, which is brilliant. > The problem with misusing PHP as a web application is not, IMO, due to > PHP. It is more that the users don't understand HTTP (and possibly > mysql) and how it can be misused. That's true to a certain extent, but also some of the idioms make it very easy to write secure code. For example, the mail() function, as I understand it, does not insert a blank line between the headers of the message and the body. So if you code a naive form, anybody can add a "To:" line or a "Cc:" line or better yet a "Bcc:" line and spam some third party with a bot that automates all of this. None of this is intuitive at all. For more info see: http://www.securephpwiki.com/index.php/Email_Injection Secondly, people writing in PHP are lazy. There are suites out there that require register_globals to be on, and they never would have existed had that poorly-thought-out setting never existed. So people install them, turn it on, and get hacked routinely. I see this all the time at Rackspace. I would say that register_globals and allow_url_fopen together account for 90% of the apache-level compromises. > This is especially true because > relatively intelligent people with no training can do "something" with > PHP. Most people can fly an airplane for a while without much training. > Its just easy to get into trouble (Takeoff is optional, landing is > mandatory.) True... many are novices and assume that if the program works as intended during a test, that's enough. What they need to ask is if there is a test that could make them not work as intended, and that's a much, much harder problem. > What are the options? You can increase safety by removing > functionality Well, what happened with libc in OpenBSD is that people discovered it was really non-intuitive to use strcpy/strncpy and such securely, so they created strlcat/strlcpy and issued warnings whenever you used code that used the deprecated functions. > Bash (or rm) certainly lets you do that. Should this be disallowed? The question is not whether you can shoot yourself in the foot. The question is, if a complete novice picks up the gun and tries to unload it, or turn the safety on, will it shoot them instead? If so, that's very bad design. It should be clear to a lay person which end is the dangerous one. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 13:33:33 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 13:33:40 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Need some help with SVN In-Reply-To: <20061205184259.GA5193@subspacefield.org> References: <77be04730612050953t256b9ce3tfee62756219d6198@mail.gmail.com> <20061205184259.GA5193@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <77be04730612051133u3fd1baecsc9b8ffcc5ba183ba@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 11:53:39AM -0600, Justizin wrote: > > Unless you have to, also, I'd suggest using mod_dav_svn vs. svnserve > > I've never used either, just ssh+svn... can you explain what DAV is and > why dav_svn is better? (a) you can directly browse the live repo, at least HEAD revisions, without installing ViewCVS/ViewVC, you can copy and paste URLs from the browser to use for checkouts or branching. (b) you can use the wide range of authentication back-ends available for apache to control access. I use htaccess, but hope to include this in our new LDAP/krb5 cloud. (c) you can mount a subversion repository as a normal DAV mount using Windows Explorer, Mac Finder, Konqueror, cadaver, Novell NetDrive, or any of 100 other clients, and you can turn on autocommit, which makes it great for version controlling random crap. (d) the apache team writes a network server, the subversion team are revision control experts. I like to keep it that way. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 13:40:00 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 13:40:01 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] stopping services on a Debian Etch box In-Reply-To: <456B7007.901@cox-internet.com> References: <456B7007.901@cox-internet.com> Message-ID: <20061205194000.GA19597@subspacefield.org> On Mon, Nov 27, 2006 at 05:08:55PM -0600, Dennis Myhand wrote: > I have built a web server for the students in my classes. I need to > know how to stop the services for inetd and rpc on debian etch. Is > there a specific script these reside in? Thanks, Dennis You mean like /etc/init.d/xinetd? -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From Dewayne.Duff at ogn.af.mil Tue Dec 5 13:40:47 2006 From: Dewayne.Duff at ogn.af.mil (Duff DeWayne SA AFOSI/Det 401) Date: Tue Dec 5 13:40:39 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages In-Reply-To: <20061205192721.GD8161@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: Any of you ever read O'Reilly's PHPUnit pocket guide? I was looking for just one or two functions I couldn't do any other way, but before doing them in PHP, I bought this book to see what I could do in the way of testing. While I'm sure there are still many risks I'm still ignorant of, PHP Unit claims to aid you in writing code by writing the safe results of your test, versus just writing code. I'm still experimenting with it so I can't boast yet, just wondered if anyone else has read it. --D? -----Original Message----- From: satlug-bounces@satlug.org [mailto:satlug-bounces@satlug.org] On Behalf Of Travis H. Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 1:27 PM To: satlug@satlug.org Subject: Re: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 01:06:03PM -0600, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > If you want to mimimize SLOC, have you ever looked at Forth? :) I've heard about it, and heard that a FORTH program can be smaller than a hand-crafted assembly program, and that the Mac firmware uses it, which is brilliant. > The problem with misusing PHP as a web application is not, IMO, due to > PHP. It is more that the users don't understand HTTP (and possibly > mysql) and how it can be misused. That's true to a certain extent, but also some of the idioms make it very easy to write secure code. For example, the mail() function, as I understand it, does not insert a blank line between the headers of the message and the body. So if you code a naive form, anybody can add a "To:" line or a "Cc:" line or better yet a "Bcc:" line and spam some third party with a bot that automates all of this. None of this is intuitive at all. For more info see: http://www.securephpwiki.com/index.php/Email_Injection Secondly, people writing in PHP are lazy. There are suites out there that require register_globals to be on, and they never would have existed had that poorly-thought-out setting never existed. So people install them, turn it on, and get hacked routinely. I see this all the time at Rackspace. I would say that register_globals and allow_url_fopen together account for 90% of the apache-level compromises. > This is especially true because > relatively intelligent people with no training can do "something" with > PHP. Most people can fly an airplane for a while without much training. > Its just easy to get into trouble (Takeoff is optional, landing is > mandatory.) True... many are novices and assume that if the program works as intended during a test, that's enough. What they need to ask is if there is a test that could make them not work as intended, and that's a much, much harder problem. > What are the options? You can increase safety by removing > functionality Well, what happened with libc in OpenBSD is that people discovered it was really non-intuitive to use strcpy/strncpy and such securely, so they created strlcat/strlcpy and issued warnings whenever you used code that used the deprecated functions. > Bash (or rm) certainly lets you do that. Should this be disallowed? The question is not whether you can shoot yourself in the foot. The question is, if a complete novice picks up the gun and tries to unload it, or turn the safety on, will it shoot them instead? If so, that's very bad design. It should be clear to a lay person which end is the dangerous one. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- -- _______________________________________________ SATLUG mailing list SATLUG@satlug.org http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 13:50:04 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Tue Dec 5 13:50:07 2006 Subject: SLOC was Re: [SATLUG] PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <77be04730612051100q4cf295ech859f07067a3baaf5@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612051002h4591bcf0tb2345c62673f61f8@mail.gmail.com> <4575BE49.7070907@gmail.com> <77be04730612051100q4cf295ech859f07067a3baaf5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4575CD6C.2090707@gmail.com> Justizin wrote: > On 12/5/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: >> Justizin wrote: >> >> > So, I could challenge your question with another: >> > >> > What in the hell does a raw SLOC count tell you, at all? ;) >> >> OK, now we are getting somewhere. >> >> Of course SLOC by itself is not definitive. Its like saying that a book >> has 100 pages or 1000 pages. It says nothing about the language, >> content, quality of writing, redundancy, importance, etc of the book. >> >> What SLOC does is give you a measure of size. This measure of size can >> used to manage software development and maintenance. Studies have shown >> that SLOC written per day is fairly constant for an individual >> programmer regardless of language (but not regardless of application >> domain). Individual programmer productivity also falls into a range >> that can be measured. If you can estimate the size of a project by >> various measures, such as expert estimation, comparison with other >> similar projects, etc, you can estimate the time and number of >> developers needed to write or maintain a project. > > Yes, SLOC could be a useful factor somewhere in the "planning > allocation of resources" realm, but it has nothing to do with quality. I never said, or even implied, that SLOC was related to quality. > In fact, a system with more SLOC will require more people to > accomplish less. Many large Plone deployments are managed by a single > person. What does a Plone *deployment* have to do with this discussion? Does the person have to understand the complete code base, or just the configuration files? > Also, this assumes that you will need to write or maintain a large > portion of code. Plone has thousands of people contributing to it, so > even though I am responsible for large sites with millions of lines of > code running underneath, well, I'm also not individually responsible > for every line of kernel code, or the c library - I'm only responsible > for what they do, choosing good versions of them, and if I'm > displeased with their behaviour - something which doesn't happen often > - then I am free to dip in. > > Deploying Plone does not imply maintaining 5mil SLOC. Studies have been done that says that maintainers have a limited amount of code that they can be intimately knowledgeable about. As the amount of code increases, their expertise decreases. > Also, I think we were talking about SLOC wrt "amount written for PHP > vs. Rails". So, saying: > > "More lines of code have been written in my language!" > > Is entirely invalid, and you'll never convince me otherwise. :) Selecting a language for a particular application is a complex task. I never said that the number of SLOC written in a language is important. (Think COBOL.) What is important is the nature of the application (platform, function, etc) and the skill level of the people asked to implement it. The original posting implied that SLOC was useless for any purpose. I am asserting that is is useful, but like any measurement, can be misused. Your example above is a misuse, so we agree on that point. > What's interesting is that the SLOC argument ignores the fact that > many programmers today attack redesigns in hopes of significantly > reducing code. Ah. The refactoring problem. In 1986 or so I rewrote 40K Fortran SLOC to about 20K SLOC for a new platform while increasing performance. The difference was not the language but the fact that we knew what we wanted to do and were able to consolidate functions. [Skill might have had a little to do with it too. :) ] > Anyway, what's important is what an application does, whether it does > it well, and reliably, and how much it actually costs to maintain. I agree. > It cannot be said that for each n SLOC y dollars will be spent, and > that's truly a naive way of estimating work IMO. If I were competing > for work with someone who did this, I would eat them alive. ;) You've never worked in a large domain then. There is a vast disparity of the capabilities of individuals. Of course if you pick a project that matches your skills, you can compete effectively. Put can you do that for, say, the space shuttle? How about managing the software for the C-17 (43 different computers, 3 networks)? As a manager, how do you go about estimating how much it will cost to maintain that code? You may be very skillful. I may be too. But you can't manage a complex project on just our skills. You have to take into account the less skilled programmer too. Also, as projects increase in size, the communication between programmers and teams of programmers increases exponentially and overall productivity decreases. See, for instance, Boehm, Humphrey, or Mills. They all have entries on wikipedia. -- Bruce From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 14:00:31 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Tue Dec 5 14:00:32 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages In-Reply-To: <20061205192721.GD8161@subspacefield.org> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061205182510.GC20645@subspacefield.org> <4575C31B.3000104@gmail.com> <20061205192721.GD8161@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <4575CFDF.9070706@gmail.com> Travis H. wrote: > The question is not whether you can shoot yourself in the foot. > The question is, if a complete novice picks up the gun and tries > to unload it, or turn the safety on, will it shoot them instead? > If so, that's very bad design. It should be clear to a lay person > which end is the dangerous one. But if someone without knowledge uses something, perhaps they get what they deserve. Can you drive a 60 ton truck because you can drive a car? Many people might think so, but they are wrong--and can endanger others. People visit dangerous web sites all the time. They don't affect us because we don't use windows. Should we just disable all browsers on all windows boxes because they are dangerous? Oh, wait... :) -- Bruce From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 14:14:17 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 14:14:19 2006 Subject: SLOC was Re: [SATLUG] PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <4575CD6C.2090707@gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612051002h4591bcf0tb2345c62673f61f8@mail.gmail.com> <4575BE49.7070907@gmail.com> <77be04730612051100q4cf295ech859f07067a3baaf5@mail.gmail.com> <4575CD6C.2090707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612051214g5d277635h80707258b6a96a0a@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > Justizin wrote: > > On 12/5/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > >> Justizin wrote: > >> > >> > So, I could challenge your question with another: > >> > > >> > What in the hell does a raw SLOC count tell you, at all? ;) > >> > >> OK, now we are getting somewhere. > >> > >> Of course SLOC by itself is not definitive. Its like saying that a book > >> has 100 pages or 1000 pages. It says nothing about the language, > >> content, quality of writing, redundancy, importance, etc of the book. > >> > >> What SLOC does is give you a measure of size. This measure of size can > >> used to manage software development and maintenance. Studies have shown > >> that SLOC written per day is fairly constant for an individual > >> programmer regardless of language (but not regardless of application > >> domain). Individual programmer productivity also falls into a range > >> that can be measured. If you can estimate the size of a project by > >> various measures, such as expert estimation, comparison with other > >> similar projects, etc, you can estimate the time and number of > >> developers needed to write or maintain a project. > > > > Yes, SLOC could be a useful factor somewhere in the "planning > > allocation of resources" realm, but it has nothing to do with quality. > > I never said, or even implied, that SLOC was related to quality. > Sorry, I just thought that was what we were talking about: "PHP is better than Rails because more code has been written in it.." ... ... "SLOC is definitely important!" "Wha?" > > > In fact, a system with more SLOC will require more people to > > accomplish less. Many large Plone deployments are managed by a single > > person. > > What does a Plone *deployment* have to do with this discussion? Does > the person have to understand the complete code base, or just the > configuration files? > It's a specific example, for one. ;) > > Also, this assumes that you will need to write or maintain a large > > portion of code. Plone has thousands of people contributing to it, so > > even though I am responsible for large sites with millions of lines of > > code running underneath, well, I'm also not individually responsible > > for every line of kernel code, or the c library - I'm only responsible > > for what they do, choosing good versions of them, and if I'm > > displeased with their behaviour - something which doesn't happen often > > - then I am free to dip in. > > > > Deploying Plone does not imply maintaining 5mil SLOC. > > Studies have been done that says that maintainers have a limited amount > of code that they can be intimately knowledgeable about. As the amount > of code increases, their expertise decreases. > Yesh, but as I explained, if you share a codebase with thousands of people, noone has to be intimately familiar with everything. Really, there are about two or three layers of patterns that people have to be familiar with for our millions of SLOC. If you know how a few of the gears and knobs work, and what the dials mean, you can be set in front of pretty much any console and asked to clean up house. ;) Most of the people I work with probably defy any studies you have about how many SLOC an individual can have a grasp of. Our entire 5mil SLOC codebase can really be attributed to the ideas of 3-5 people around y2k, about a thousand iterations later. > > Also, I think we were talking about SLOC wrt "amount written for PHP > > vs. Rails". So, saying: > > > > "More lines of code have been written in my language!" > > > > Is entirely invalid, and you'll never convince me otherwise. :) > > Selecting a language for a particular application is a complex task. I > never said that the number of SLOC written in a language is important. > (Think COBOL.) > > What is important is the nature of the application (platform, function, > etc) and the skill level of the people asked to implement it. I think this is a farce, the skill level bit. Python is super easy to write, and also very powerful. The Python programmers I know are amongst the most intelligent and experienced of any programmers I know, and most people I know who work primarily in another language like C++ or Objective-C know Python about as well as I do. The same has surely been said about many other languages in the past. The reason that I continue to use Python after having used it for a few years is that it made sense to me when I first saw it, and still makes sense, and it becomes increasingly similar for me to encapsulate my ideas using Python in such a way that novices can work with it. And I'm a smart enough guy that if something is slow, I can write it in C. Calling into Python from C is about as complex as pulling a function pointer out of a hash. Ruby, I think, has a lot in common architecturally with Python, but it feels too perl-y for me. I used to chomp, but I don't anymore. > The original posting implied that SLOC was useless for any purpose. I > am asserting that is is useful, but like any measurement, can be > misused. Your example above is a misuse, so we agree on that point. > Well, sure. It's a valid measurement, about as valuable as a boxer's weight, which is to say not very. It's a point of record more than it's important. > > What's interesting is that the SLOC argument ignores the fact that > > many programmers today attack redesigns in hopes of significantly > > reducing code. > > Ah. The refactoring problem. In 1986 or so I rewrote 40K Fortran SLOC > to about 20K SLOC for a new platform while increasing performance. The > difference was not the language but the fact that we knew what we wanted > to do and were able to consolidate functions. [Skill might have had a > little to do with it too. :) ] > Sure, I wasn't implying a new language.. It is *very* difficult to retain value from a SLOC comparison even between the same application in two languages without knowing what's different. A redesign in a new language might also include new techniques which lead to terser code. Also, communities with good code-gen tools will have a better handle on ever-changing boilerplate which is not so much expressive as necessary to interface with older software. > > Anyway, what's important is what an application does, whether it does > > it well, and reliably, and how much it actually costs to maintain. > > I agree. > > > It cannot be said that for each n SLOC y dollars will be spent, and > > that's truly a naive way of estimating work IMO. If I were competing > > for work with someone who did this, I would eat them alive. ;) > > You've never worked in a large domain then. There is a vast disparity > of the capabilities of individuals. Of course if you pick a project > that matches your skills, you can compete effectively. Put can you do > that for, say, the space shuttle? How about managing the software for > the C-17 (43 different computers, 3 networks)? As a manager, how do you > go about estimating how much it will cost to maintain that code? I'm not saying those aren't difficult factors to judge, only that SLOC is not a useful tool in judging them. Experience may show that software with more SLOC using a certain approach may actually lead to more manageable code because, as the overall application grows, existing components are rarely rewritten. Another approach may result in less active code, but far more work in changing the way of doing things abruptly from time to time. So, if you weighed SLOC in too much in one or the other direction, you might end up with a bad combination of the downsides of both approaches.. > You may be very skillful. I may be too. But you can't manage a complex > project on just our skills. You have to take into account the less > skilled programmer too. Also, as projects increase in size, the > communication between programmers and teams of programmers increases > exponentially and overall productivity decreases. See, for instance, > Boehm, Humphrey, or Mills. They all have entries on wikipedia. I'm insulted that you assume I know nothing about large projects. You're pointing me at CS research in wikipedia and I've been explaining for a month that I am building a large distributed system to manage a massive archive of computer science research. *blinks* Also, a lot of old world literature on project planning and "large-scale" design is largely considered to be antiquating as we speak. Most people do XP/agile for large government and e.g. fortune 500 contracts. That's not to say that none of the ideas are valid, but it's not the same world. Computers are changing the way people communicate and coordinate large projects in other areas - ALL other areas, why would new technology not be changing the game for us? What's happening is that communities are becoming able to produce large software products of great quality with comparable rigor to large companies, it started with GNU/Linux and has gone on to the web. The only difference is that we bring a mix of interests to the table, rather than one, large-scale shared interest which can become a red herring of sorts.. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 14:15:24 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 14:15:29 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages In-Reply-To: <4575CFDF.9070706@gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061205182510.GC20645@subspacefield.org> <4575C31B.3000104@gmail.com> <20061205192721.GD8161@subspacefield.org> <4575CFDF.9070706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061205201524.GC19597@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 02:00:31PM -0600, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > > If so, that's very bad design. It should be clear to a lay person > > which end is the dangerous one. > > But if someone without knowledge uses something, perhaps they get what > they deserve. I'm strongly tempted to continue with the gun metaphor, and children, or something, but I think that's stretching the analogy a bit. I think it's desirable for languages to be easy to use correctly. That's time everyone can spend on other things which can't be as easily designed away. And then people wouldn't have their boxes hacked, so I'd receive less spam and ssh brute force attempts. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From kell at spoonix.com Tue Dec 5 14:23:46 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Tue Dec 5 14:23:58 2006 Subject: SLOC was Re: [SATLUG] PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <4575CD6C.2090707@gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612051002h4591bcf0tb2345c62673f61f8@mail.gmail.com> <4575BE49.7070907@gmail.com> <77be04730612051100q4cf295ech859f07067a3baaf5@mail.gmail.com> <4575CD6C.2090707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061205202346.GD27856@spoonix.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 01:50:04PM -0600, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > You've never worked in a large domain then. There is a vast disparity > of the capabilities of individuals. Of course if you pick a project > that matches your skills, you can compete effectively. Put can you do > that for, say, the space shuttle? How about managing the software for > the C-17 (43 different computers, 3 networks)? As a manager, how do you > go about estimating how much it will cost to maintain that code? > > You may be very skillful. I may be too. But you can't manage a complex > project on just our skills. You have to take into account the less > skilled programmer too. Also, as projects increase in size, the > communication between programmers and teams of programmers increases > exponentially and overall productivity decreases. See, for instance, > Boehm, Humphrey, or Mills. They all have entries on wikipedia. Isn't this what "software engineering" is supposed to address, though? My understanding of SE (granted, I fled from school before I got to that course) was that it's basically a game of divide-and-conquer on the main problem that you perform recursively until you've broken it down into a whole lot of small solutions. End result is that you have your API, rules on how everything is supposed to fit together, points for building tests, and all that's left is the coding. You can use SLOC to gauge about how long it will take to assemble everything, and you can use it to help you figure out where to refactor. But during actual development... if you have a suit who wants to know where things stand right this instant, wouldn't the results from functional testing be a much better way to gauge progress? That's one of the reasons why I like the agile methodologies (once you strip away the pointless novelty in them)... they seem like they would scale well. -- K. Spoon From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 14:25:05 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 14:25:07 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages In-Reply-To: References: <20061205192721.GD8161@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061205202505.GA26870@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 01:40:47PM -0600, Duff DeWayne SA AFOSI/Det 401 wrote: > Any of you ever read O'Reilly's PHPUnit pocket guide? > While I'm sure there are still many risks I'm still ignorant of, > PHP Unit claims to aid you in writing code by writing the safe results > of your test, versus just writing code. > I'm still experimenting with it so I can't boast yet, > just wondered if anyone else has read it. --D? I assume Unit refers to a unit test? If so, this sounds a lot like "extreme programming" (XP). The idea there was that you write the test case for your code, then write your code, then verify the test is successful, then you can call it from other places. So you end up with at least one test case for every basic unit. They also go on to suggest that for every coder you have an observer who can provide a fresh viewpoint and potentially catch problems or suggest optimizations while the cost of recoding it is still cheap. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 14:29:42 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 14:29:44 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] good SE / language site Message-ID: <20061205202942.GA10063@subspacefield.org> People who were enjoying the language and software development and engineering discussion may enjoy this wiki: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki I started on this page: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DontRepeatYourself -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 14:30:58 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 14:31:04 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] good SE / language site In-Reply-To: <20061205202942.GA10063@subspacefield.org> References: <20061205202942.GA10063@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <77be04730612051230g67dc3ac9m1ecd2621c1f6966f@mail.gmail.com> mmm, DRY. I recall having read quite a bit at c2.com at some point. Is that where John Vlissides' homepage is? On 12/5/06, Travis H. wrote: > People who were enjoying the language and software development > and engineering discussion may enjoy this wiki: > > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki > > I started on this page: > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DontRepeatYourself > -- > "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for > discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez > -><- > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 14:38:22 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 14:38:25 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages In-Reply-To: <20061205202505.GA26870@subspacefield.org> References: <20061205192721.GD8161@subspacefield.org> <20061205202505.GA26870@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <77be04730612051238x1323fc3cwdf702992e525d1e3@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 01:40:47PM -0600, Duff DeWayne SA AFOSI/Det 401 wrote: > > Any of you ever read O'Reilly's PHPUnit pocket guide? > > While I'm sure there are still many risks I'm still ignorant of, > > PHP Unit claims to aid you in writing code by writing the safe results > > of your test, versus just writing code. > > I'm still experimenting with it so I can't boast yet, > > just wondered if anyone else has read it. --D? > > I assume Unit refers to a unit test? > If so, this sounds a lot like "extreme programming" (XP). Keep in mind that XP and its' big brother Agile came after test-driven development. > The idea there was that you write the test case for your code, > then write your code, then verify the test is successful, then > you can call it from other places. So you end up with at least > one test case for every basic unit. The central tenet of test-driven development is that you need to have a handle on what your code has to accomplish before you write it, so you should write tests, verify that they fail, and then get them to pass one by one. Once they all pass, you at least have what you thought you needed, and you can decide if it is what you need. ;) > They also go on to suggest that for every coder you have an > observer who can provide a fresh viewpoint and potentially > catch problems or suggest optimizations while the cost of > recoding it is still cheap. It's really nice when you have a few hundred observers, btw. ;) XP has more to do with formalizing an ad-hoc requirements and assurance/testing process than with establishing the idea of test-driven development, if you ask me. Follow the trail of literature. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 14:40:46 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 14:40:52 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] AoE results In-Reply-To: <20061128113904.GA21440@spoonix.com> References: <20061127123012.GA11289@spoonix.com> <456B231E.30705@gmail.com> <20061127202052.GB14442@spoonix.com> <20061128113904.GA21440@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <20061205204046.GB10063@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 05:39:05AM -0600, K. Spoon wrote: > generating a bunch of files, though, AoE leaves NFS in the dust. Both > methods also have the benefit of using less CPU time than raw local ATA > writes, though. Less CPU usage perhaps, but network activity is expensive. Great paper: http://research.microsoft.com/~gray/papers/MS_TR_99_100_Rules_of_Thumb_in_Data_Engineering.pdf Rules of thumb: "[one] message costs 10k instructions and 10 instructions per byte" "a disk I/O costs 5k instructions and 0.1 instructions per byte" Maybe network packets are less expensive than this implies because they are ethernet but not IP, but I suspect that it won't change two orders of magnitude. So I suspect the reason why CPU % is going down is that the amount of time has increased in the AoE case compared to the directly-attached disk. It's waiting for data from the network, probably. The latency can't be lower because the remote system still has to do just as much as a single system would do with a directly attached disk, plus both systems have to do a network transaction. Also, is DMA and other hdparm stuff tuned for this local disk? That would significantly reduce CPU time on the system for the local case. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Tue Dec 5 14:45:53 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Tue Dec 5 14:46:08 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Will they ever get it right? Message-ID: <4575DA81.5070604@w5omr.shacknet.nu> http://tinyurl.com/y66l8e *December 05, 2006 * (TechWorld.com) -- Windows Vista is wide open to nearly 40 percent of the malware currently circulating, Microsoft has admitted, following a report by Sophos. Remarkably, with the new operating system just released to business, the software giant said in effect that there is nothing it can do about the threats in question -- Stratio-Zip, Netsky-D and MyDoom-O -- because they rely on social engineering to invade systems. The three threats together account for 39.7 percent of currently circulating malware, according to Sophos. "Based on our initial investigation, Microsoft can confirm that these variants do not take advantage of a security vulnerability, rather they rely on social engineering to infect a user's system," Microsoft said in a statement. While the email system built into Vista, Windows Mail Client, stops all of the top 10 viruses identified by Sophos for November, the three threats outlined can infect systems when a third-party email client is used, Sophos said last week. Stratio-Zip was November's top malware, accounting for one-third of virus traffic, Sophos said. Sophos said that while no Vista-specific viruses have yet been detected, they are likely to appear soon. "It won't be long before cyber criminals develop Vista-specific malware or modify current threats to fit the bill," said Ron O'Brien, Sophos senior security analyst, in a statement. "The Stratio-Zip worm, for example, remains on the top ten list due to constant, minor alterations to its code that force security systems to re-identify the malware." Few actual installations of Vista currently exist, since the OS was only launched on Thursday. Sophos and McAfee have antivirus products ready for Vista, but Symantec, Trend Micro and CA are still working on theirs. Microsoft congratulated itself on the "aggressive security design decisions" it took with Windows Mail Client, but said if users choose to use other, more vulnerable email programs they can configure User Account Control (UAC) to help limit the damage users can cause if they're infected. ------- -- Never is the time greater to switch to an Open source OS than now. From e2eiod at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 15:01:03 2006 From: e2eiod at gmail.com (Robert Pearson) Date: Tue Dec 5 15:01:05 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] anti-spam effort In-Reply-To: <45756723.3020001@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <4574A68B.5030004@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <45752EB3.3040300@futuretechsolutions.com> <45756723.3020001@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, Geoff wrote: > Robert Pearson wrote: > > > I didn't mean to send that last one - sorry. > > > One of the mailing lists was most interesting in the way it happened. > > I receive mail from the JavaMUG.org mailing list. I hardly ever reply > > to these because they are mostly Java job postings. > > There was a flurry of emails from some guy promoting himself, some > > headhunter service or some Java tools. It looked OK, like a normal job > > posting. Normally I delete these unopened due to lack of interest. I > > opened this one. > > I started having problems with that mailing list, and another totally > > different one, shortly after opening that email. > > > > This just started in the last couple of months. > > What platform/OS? PC "white box" AMD clone running SUSE 10.1 and Firefox 2.0 from my home directory. SUSE 10.1 Firefox 2.0 is not released yet. I have had some success by keeping the "$HOME/.java (that's [dot]java)" directory deleted and the file "$HOME/.mozilla/firefox/'some_character_string'.default/blocklist.xml" removed. "blocklist.xml" is a legitimate Firefox file name but from the behavior I have observed in my case, it looks to be a "spoof" to some place other than the URL listed inside it. In the two exploits, or attempted exploits, of my Linux systems the Malware was placed in the "$HOME/.java (that's [dot]java)" directory. I now run clamav irregularly. Two of my systems are dual boot SUSE 10.1 and Windows 2000. I found these exploits, or attempted exploits, while running Grisoft AVG from Windows 2000 on those machines. I ran "rootkit" checking for a while. I stopped because that is very powerful, for evil, software. Being the Security novice I am, I have no way of knowing if the "rootkit" checking I install is not "spyware" itself. From rct at gherkin.frus.com Tue Dec 5 15:42:18 2006 From: rct at gherkin.frus.com (Bob Tracy) Date: Tue Dec 5 15:42:38 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: XP/Agile vs. CMMI (was Re: SLOC was Re: PHP Eats Rails...) In-Reply-To: <77be04730612051214g5d277635h80707258b6a96a0a@mail.gmail.com> "from Justizin at Dec 5, 2006 02:14:17 pm" Message-ID: <20061205214218.4AB6ADBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Justizin wrote: > Also, a lot of old world literature on project planning and > "large-scale" design is largely considered to be antiquating as we > speak. Most people do XP/agile for large government and e.g. fortune > 500 contracts. That's not to say that none of the ideas are valid, > but it's not the same world. The above intrigues. Before anyone acuses me of engaging in bear-baiting, please perish the thought. Clearly, we've got expertise on this subject worthy of exploring in a bit more detail. Perhaps this should have been part of the WTF thread, but anyway... In my past is a project for a government customer where the developers used XP/agile programming techniques. At the time, the company was making strides toward CMMI level 5 certification, but the developers seemed determined to abuse the toolset and techniques in such a way as to thwart any notion of design process, let alone intelligence behind the design. End result was poorly defined interfaces between the various modules, poor-to-nonexistent documentation, and lots of 11th-hour heroics as everything got stiched together in time (barely) to make the delivery. There were *major* changes in the user interface between point releases (internal) of the product due to the amount of rework being done. Why so much rework? The overall system context hadn't been adequately considered during coding of the individual components, and when the whole thing got put together and tested as a system, the design deficiencies became all too apparent :-(. Based on what I observed, if people had actually bothered to design something before going off and coding (under the guise of prototyping), much of the arse-pain could have been avoided. I'd be intensely interested in other success/failure stories involving XP/agile usage, because while I'm willing to acknowledge that such techniques can bear fruit, our experience was clearly anathema to the company's CMMI aspirations. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Tracy WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org rct@frus.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From e2eiod at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 15:54:47 2006 From: e2eiod at gmail.com (Robert Pearson) Date: Tue Dec 5 15:54:50 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > Justizin wrote: > > On 12/5/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > >> Justizin wrote: > >> > >> > SLOC is a very bad measure, though. > >> > >> What do you think is better? > >> > > > > Anything. ;) > > OK. I choose apples. > > Actually, my question was serious. SLOC has been bad-mouthed since *at > least* 1970. The problem is that I haven't heard of anything better. > Function points was once suggested, but that was designed for COBOL and > most people like it less than SLOC. > > I can go on and on detailing the problems with SLOC as a measure of > productivity. However, it *is* a better measure than nothing. I just > have not heard of anything better. Interesting commentary on SLOC. Here's some slightly different feedback and the reassertion of the original objective. > Robert Pearson wrote: > > > > Major update to the Wikipedia Web Application Frameworks page at: > > <> > > Did you notice that the PHP section had the largest table? It looks like > a PHP lover wrote that article. :) No, I did not. I use this page frequently to find products and tools and was glad to see it updated. Personally, I am not a big fan of PHP. I sent the "PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast" post out trying to get some comments on the "Oloh" source site. [Article source] <> I was really interested in how they do the monitoring and how the database is setup and updated. Seemed interesting to me. I never had any idea that total lines of code produced was tracked and even more interesting, by language! The only coding "rule of thumb" measure I have heard of is IBM's famous, or infamous, 10 lines of "tested" code a day. The key operational word is "tested", which is also subject to local definition. Easy to say, hard to do based on my experience in QC/QA work. For example, R. Tyler Ballance's "San Antonio's Daily WTF" thread gives some wonderful examples of code that appears to work in at least one instance. In the QC/QA world I have received many lines of code signed off on as "checked, verified and tested" that failed simple compilation. I have also received many lines of code not signed off on that passed every test with flying colors. I once kept track of these results. Fascinating... Testing for bugs in code has its own limitations. Who tests, and how, the test code? "A number of experts have claimed a relationship between the number of lines of code in a program and the number of bugs that it contains. This relationship is not simple, since the number of errors per line of code varies greatly according to the language used, the type of quality assurance processes, and level of testing, but it does appear to exist. More importantly, the number of bugs in a program has been directly related to the number of security faults that are likely to be found in the program."- Wikipedia I am happy with this solution--- "The Joel Test: 12 Steps to Better Code" <> Joel and I are pretty much in agreement from different viewpoints. From kell at spoonix.com Tue Dec 5 16:02:02 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Tue Dec 5 16:01:56 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] AoE results In-Reply-To: <20061205204046.GB10063@subspacefield.org> References: <20061127123012.GA11289@spoonix.com> <456B231E.30705@gmail.com> <20061127202052.GB14442@spoonix.com> <20061128113904.GA21440@spoonix.com> <20061205204046.GB10063@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061205220202.GE27856@spoonix.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 02:40:46PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 05:39:05AM -0600, K. Spoon wrote: > > generating a bunch of files, though, AoE leaves NFS in the dust. Both > > methods also have the benefit of using less CPU time than raw local ATA > > writes, though. > > Less CPU usage perhaps, but network activity is expensive. Sort of, but not really. :) All things being equal, yes.. it takes less CPU time to send an ATA command to a local disk than it does to fire off a message to an ethernet device. But once you start dealing with large numbers, things are no longer equal. > So I suspect the reason why CPU % is going down is that the amount of time > has increased in the AoE case compared to the directly-attached disk. > It's waiting for data from the network, probably. The big problem with ATA is that it foists management of the bus onto your CPU. With SCSI, you generally have a dedicated processor on the card that can play traffic cop and all the CPU has to do is handle interrupts. Not so with IDE... not only does the CPU have to handle interrupts, it also has send commands to the drive to position the head, copy stuff from the buffer, send ATA commands to the drive to start writing, etc, etc (in addition to all the interrupts these extra tasks create). A good demonstration of this is what happens when you are doing a large write to a filesystem on an IDE drive that has low memory. After a certain point (about 256MB if you've got a drive with an 8MB cache) the kernel will attempt to push more data to the drive than it can handle. The kernel will call pdflush() and attempt to buffer stuff to system memory... but when that runs out, it'll try and use swap. If the swap is on the same drive as the one you're hammering, the system load will start climbing geometrically because the proc is trying to handle not only the I/O duty for the write, but for the swap activity as well. Bottom line: IDE is cheaper fiscally, but more expensive computationally. With AoE, you're basically pushing the disk management duty off of the client and onto the CPU in the "shelf". So... it's not that the CPU load is just disappearing, it's that the CPU load is being made someone else's problem. You get the same effect if you run a SCSI card or toss a 3Ware card into the box. In the case I mentioned above, it'd be the pdflush on the AoE server (shelf) that would get triggered... but it's more likely that the shelf would have have more memory to dedicate to buffering for pdflush (not to mention more spindles and thus more caches across which to distribute the load) so it'd take much, much longer to happen than on a single local disk. > Also, is DMA and other hdparm stuff tuned for this local disk? For the SATA drive on the workstation, yes. For the PATA drive in the shelf server, no... all I did was hardset the BIOS to run the disks at PIO4. Also worth pointing out is that I believe the PATA drives in the AoE server have larger caches than the SATA drive on my workstation that I used for the tests. > That would significantly reduce CPU time on the system for the > local case. It would prolong the inevitable. :) Instead of choking at 256MB, the system would start flailing at 384MB (using totally arbitrary numbers here). If you're only trying to write a 300MB file, then yeah.. you'd never notice. If you're dealing with a 5GB file, same problem pops up. -- K. Spoon From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 16:07:42 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 16:07:47 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: XP/Agile vs. CMMI (was Re: SLOC was Re: PHP Eats Rails...) In-Reply-To: <20061205214218.4AB6ADBA1@gherkin.frus.com> References: <77be04730612051214g5d277635h80707258b6a96a0a@mail.gmail.com> <20061205214218.4AB6ADBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612051407l31705764laafb58817755fe1b@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, Bob Tracy wrote: > Justizin wrote: > > Also, a lot of old world literature on project planning and > > "large-scale" design is largely considered to be antiquating as we > > speak. Most people do XP/agile for large government and e.g. fortune > > 500 contracts. That's not to say that none of the ideas are valid, > > but it's not the same world. > > The above intrigues. Before anyone acuses me of engaging in bear-baiting, > please perish the thought. Clearly, we've got expertise on this subject > worthy of exploring in a bit more detail. > > Perhaps this should have been part of the WTF thread, but anyway... Oh no, here comes the CMMI. > In my past is a project for a government customer where the developers > used XP/agile programming techniques. At the time, the company was > making strides toward CMMI level 5 certification, but the developers > seemed determined to abuse the toolset and techniques in such a way as > to thwart any notion of design process, let alone intelligence behind > the design. End result was poorly defined interfaces between the various > modules, poor-to-nonexistent documentation, and lots of 11th-hour heroics > as everything got stiched together in time (barely) to make the delivery. > There were *major* changes in the user interface between point releases > (internal) of the product due to the amount of rework being done. Why > so much rework? The overall system context hadn't been adequately > considered during coding of the individual components, and when the whole > thing got put together and tested as a system, the design deficiencies > became all too apparent :-(. > > Based on what I observed, if people had actually bothered to design > something before going off and coding (under the guise of prototyping), > much of the arse-pain could have been avoided. I'd be intensely > interested in other success/failure stories involving XP/agile usage, > because while I'm willing to acknowledge that such techniques can bear > fruit, our experience was clearly anathema to the company's CMMI > aspirations. > The problem with big design is that needs change and people often mis-state requirements. If you can get something in someone's hands, you can move forward. CMMI is antithetical to agile. it's fat and slow by definition, and that doesn't work for any industry these days. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From e2eiod at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 16:16:27 2006 From: e2eiod at gmail.com (Robert Pearson) Date: Tue Dec 5 16:16:30 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: XP/Agile vs. CMMI (was Re: SLOC was Re: PHP Eats Rails...) In-Reply-To: <20061205214218.4AB6ADBA1@gherkin.frus.com> References: <77be04730612051214g5d277635h80707258b6a96a0a@mail.gmail.com> <20061205214218.4AB6ADBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, Bob Tracy wrote: > Justizin wrote: > > Also, a lot of old world literature on project planning and > > "large-scale" design is largely considered to be antiquating as we > > speak. Most people do XP/agile for large government and e.g. fortune > > 500 contracts. That's not to say that none of the ideas are valid, > > but it's not the same world. > > The above intrigues. Before anyone acuses me of engaging in bear-baiting, > please perish the thought. Clearly, we've got expertise on this subject > worthy of exploring in a bit more detail. > > Perhaps this should have been part of the WTF thread, but anyway... > > In my past is a project for a government customer where the developers > used XP/agile programming techniques. At the time, the company was > making strides toward CMMI level 5 certification, but the developers > seemed determined to abuse the toolset and techniques in such a way as > to thwart any notion of design process, let alone intelligence behind > the design. End result was poorly defined interfaces between the various > modules, poor-to-nonexistent documentation, and lots of 11th-hour heroics > as everything got stiched together in time (barely) to make the delivery. > There were *major* changes in the user interface between point releases > (internal) of the product due to the amount of rework being done. Why > so much rework? The overall system context hadn't been adequately > considered during coding of the individual components, and when the whole > thing got put together and tested as a system, the design deficiencies > became all too apparent :-(. > > Based on what I observed, if people had actually bothered to design > something before going off and coding (under the guise of prototyping), > much of the arse-pain could have been avoided. I'd be intensely > interested in other success/failure stories involving XP/agile usage, > because while I'm willing to acknowledge that such techniques can bear > fruit, our experience was clearly anathema to the company's CMMI > aspirations. Google is a "BIG" Agile success story. Near as I can tell, from the group that presented to us, Agile is all Google uses. During the Google presentation there was a lot of hostile comment from the attendees and several people got up and left. Some people were using Agile and were coming to like it. They were not using any where near as aggressive a time line as Google. We're talking 2 week timelines for Google versus 3 months+ for the locals. Caveat: Google has a definite profile or stereotype in mind for the people they want for programing positions. They took one look at me and thanked me for stopping by. Rank age discrimination. SwRI (Southwest Research Institute) is a big CMMI shop the last time I looked. From dmyhand at cox-internet.com Tue Dec 5 16:39:16 2006 From: dmyhand at cox-internet.com (Dennis Myhand) Date: Tue Dec 5 16:40:21 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] stopping services on a Debian Etch box In-Reply-To: <20061205194000.GA19597@subspacefield.org> References: <456B7007.901@cox-internet.com> <20061205194000.GA19597@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <4575F514.6040303@cox-internet.com> Travis H. wrote: > On Mon, Nov 27, 2006 at 05:08:55PM -0600, Dennis Myhand wrote: >> I have built a web server for the students in my classes. I need to >> know how to stop the services for inetd and rpc on debian etch. Is >> there a specific script these reside in? Thanks, Dennis > > You mean like /etc/init.d/xinetd? Yeah, that's the ticket, an rpc, too! Thanks for the reply, Dennis -- Three o'clock in the afternoon is always just a little too late or a little too early for anything you want to do. -- Jean-Paul Sartre From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 16:50:58 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 16:51:00 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] kerberos In-Reply-To: <77be04730611281513h2e861191wfffcd759e66ce3ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730611190805j15309c36j378be59a197c2433@mail.gmail.com> <20061120025842.GA10115@spoonix.com> <77be04730611200015g54cfb0d2kd906742fb9d97f8a@mail.gmail.com> <20061128201910.GD2331@nexus.subspacefield.org> <77be04730611281513h2e861191wfffcd759e66ce3ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061205225058.GC10063@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 05:13:32PM -0600, Justizin wrote: > >I don't see why you couldn't store password hashes, from a theoretical > >standpoint, as long as you stored every kind that a client machine used. > > That sounds bad, like a lot of work needs to be done in the future > that noone will want to pay for. Well, come to think of it, these are passwords for accessing LDAP, right, so there's only one client, and that is LDAP. Maybe the implementation doesn't hash passwords before comparing them, but it seems like there's no reason why a particular LDAP implementation couldn't. But it only really matters if someone can read them. If they aren't sent over the network en clair, and very few people even have an account on the LDAP server, pfft. > >Like DNS is a distributed database, but full > >of name server assumptions and using an antiquated network format > >(and on-disk format too if you're using BIND). > > what's wrong with on-disk format? I'm fond of saying: > "my application speaks file." Well, I think you misread that. I'm saying the zone file syntax is unnecessarily picky about syntax. I assume you know what BIND's on-disk format for the zone file looks like. Here's part of the file for a zone using tinydns (slightly anonymized): .tld:65.61.170.80:a:259200 =nexus.tld:123.19.53.1:86400 =foo.tld:123.42.171.1:86400 =bar.tld:123.42.171.2:86400 .sec.tld:123.42.171.1:a:259200 .sec.tld:123.42.171.2:b:259200 +ntp.tld:123.16.53.1:86400 +time.tld:123.16.53.1:86400 +timehost.tld:123.16.53.1:86400 +ns.tld:65.61.170.80:86400 +mail.tld:65.61.170.82:86400 +smtp.tld:65.61.170.82:86400 +mx.tld:65.61.170.82:86400 @tld:65.61.170.82:a::86400 Notice how there is no sequence number, no semicolons, no braces, no complicated SOA header, etc. If the file's mtime changes, it re-reads the file... no sending named a signal to force a re-read. No sequence number needed to trigger a NOTIFY to the slave. And all the reverse records are created automatically, thus not requiring a second zone. All in all, for _most_ purposes, it's far simpler and elegant than the BIND zone file format. > >How hard can it be to have a distributed read-only database? Presumably > >it's okay to do all writes from an administrative console, and I'm not > >sure what LDAP buys you over a database query. What I learned is that LDAP is more than a user database, the reason why LDAP makes sense is to centralize _multiple_ databases (using the general term). For example, storing /etc/printcap, or DHCP information, etc. But mostly I was rambling. > A friend of mine is sort of an expert on this stuff. Kerberos is a > better way to authenticate against an LDAP directory than direct LDAP, > because it's more secure. > > There's no question that we want LDAP, at least for now. Sure, we can > run on ssl, but the pool of trusted parties becomes much larger. Well, I'm sort of a student on crypto, insofar as I've published on the subject, and implemented it in network security products, and so on. Let me step back a bit; what are your requirements? Do you want to centralize all the authentication, or do you want to decentralize it as much as possible? Is it just LDAP that you wish to secure, or do you wish to secure other services? Are all the services you wish to offer kerberized or open-source (and are you prepared to modify them if they aren't kerberized)? Do you have any need for offline authentication, like what certificates do? Will you be authenticating services to the users, or users to the services, or both? Do you already have a CA in your plans, or would you like to get by without one? Will you be revoking credentials, and if so, what time constraint is that under? Do you need resistance against a single failure of the authentication machine, or can you live with having service disrupted if/when it goes down? > What I was really trying to get at is, more or less, how might > Kerberos itself be overblown, and is there anything intermediate. I really like this simplified explanation of kerb: http://web.mit.edu/kerberos/www/dialogue.html More here: http://web.mit.edu/kerberos/www/papers.html It gets a little confusing when they talk about authenticators, but I think it should be understandable to anyone (even if they aren't versed in crypto) as long as they are fairly sharp, as you seem to be. I still think they should have used a bit more protocol notation. If I understand it correctly, you do still have to have synchronized clocks between the servers and the kerb server, so that could be a stumbling block too. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From twistedpickles at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 16:53:11 2006 From: twistedpickles at gmail.com (twistedpickles) Date: Tue Dec 5 16:53:13 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Computer Show In-Reply-To: <4574F72A.80703@gvtc.com> References: <4574F72A.80703@gvtc.com> Message-ID: On 12/4/06, Nathan Oxhandler wrote: > Don, Boz, other computer show workers, > > Just wanted to check in and see if we needed anything special for the > show on the 9th. > > I plan on being there, but that is also the first night of the Santa Run > at the Transportation Museum. Since I have to go there right after the > computer show, my car will be full for both. I will probably not bring > my printer this time. > > Don, I found my Santa Hat from last year, will try and remember to bring it. > > Nathan > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > pardon but what is the computer show? -- ::twistedPickles:: : From jbharrell at fusemeister.com Tue Dec 5 17:06:20 2006 From: jbharrell at fusemeister.com (Brinkley Harrell) Date: Tue Dec 5 17:06:28 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <368c881c0612041919v5c8b5541m52b0eae822d8ef08@mail.gmail.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> <368c881c0612041919v5c8b5541m52b0eae822d8ef08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4575FB6C.5060702@fusemeister.com> Benjamin Temple wrote: > it would be even worse is it had said "teletype with COBOL" Ive heard the > language is hard to learn. > > {snip} COBOL (ah, memories) is not hard to learn -- the question is "how verbose do you want to be". As an example snatched right from Wikipedia, if you wanted to write a statement to compute one of the roots of the quadratic equation: X = (-B + SQRT( B^2 - 4 * A * C) ) / 2 * A one solution uses the compute verb: COMPUTE X = (-B + (B ** 2 - (4 * A * C)) **.5) / (2 * A). As an alternative, this could also be written as: MULTIPLY B BY B GIVING B-SQUARED. MULTIPLY 4 BY A GIVING FOUR-A. MULTIPLY FOUR-A BY C GIVING FOUR-A-C. SUBTRACT FOUR-A-C FROM B-SQUARED GIVING RESULT-1. COMPUTE RESULT-2 = RESULT-1 ** .5. SUBTRACT B FROM RESULT-2 GIVING NUMERATOR. MULTIPLY 2 BY A GIVING DENOMINATOR. DIVIDE NUMERATOR BY DENOMINATOR GIVING X. But, it's really clear. Here some humor from Wikipedia: Aphorisms and humor about COBOL It has been said of languages like C, C++, and Java that the only way to modify legacy code is to rewrite it - write once and write once again; or write once and throw away. On the other hand, it has been said of COBOL that there actually is one original COBOL program, and it only has been copied and modified millions of times. The name "ADD 1 TO COBOL GIVING COBOL" has been suggested for a hypothetical object-oriented dialect of COBOL, as a play on the name C++. While this is meant to suggest that COBOL is inherently verbose, the form given is more verbose than COBOL actually requires. Alternative expansions of the COBOL acronym have been suggested: * Compiles Only Because Of Luck * Compiles Only By Odd Luck * Completely Obsolete Business Oriented Language * Completely Over and Beyond reason Or Logic -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brinkley Harrell http://www.fusemeister.com From jbharrell at fusemeister.com Tue Dec 5 17:10:52 2006 From: jbharrell at fusemeister.com (Brinkley Harrell) Date: Tue Dec 5 17:11:04 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <457564A0.1040200@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> <457564A0.1040200@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: <4575FC7C.4050309@fusemeister.com> Geoff wrote: > {snip} > > I knew -that- was commin'... but not -nearly- as often as I'll hear > "what color was your dinosaur?" or > "when you fart, does dust come out?" or stuff like that there. > Ah, but you've never really programmed until you've had to actually wire your own punchboard (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_407). Or, have to toggle your program into the console switches!!! -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brinkley Harrell http://www.fusemeister.com From jbharrell at fusemeister.com Tue Dec 5 17:11:34 2006 From: jbharrell at fusemeister.com (Brinkley Harrell) Date: Tue Dec 5 17:11:44 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <45756552.2000805@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574EE55.5010003@satx.rr.com> <45756552.2000805@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: <4575FCA6.9090700@fusemeister.com> Geoff wrote: > Mitch Thompson wrote: >>> (from another ol' fart who just celebrated his 29th anniversary of his >>> 19th birthday) >>> >> Yeah, ya got me. I've only celebrated my 19th birthday 25 times. ;^). >> >> Actually, Brinkley's advantage was being a Nuclear propulsion officer in >> the U.S. Navy. Thanks for that! -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brinkley Harrell http://www.fusemeister.com From justizin at siggraph.org Tue Dec 5 17:12:10 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Tue Dec 5 17:12:26 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] kerberos In-Reply-To: <20061205225058.GC10063@subspacefield.org> References: <77be04730611190805j15309c36j378be59a197c2433@mail.gmail.com> <20061120025842.GA10115@spoonix.com> <77be04730611200015g54cfb0d2kd906742fb9d97f8a@mail.gmail.com> <20061128201910.GD2331@nexus.subspacefield.org> <77be04730611281513h2e861191wfffcd759e66ce3ad@mail.gmail.com> <20061205225058.GC10063@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <77be04730612051512t6edf4c9ar231bd16ba83fadb@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 05:13:32PM -0600, Justizin wrote: > > >I don't see why you couldn't store password hashes, from a theoretical > > >standpoint, as long as you stored every kind that a client machine used. > > > > That sounds bad, like a lot of work needs to be done in the future > > that noone will want to pay for. > > Well, come to think of it, these are passwords for accessing LDAP, right, > so there's only one client, and that is LDAP. Maybe the implementation > doesn't hash passwords before comparing them, but it seems like there's no > reason why a particular LDAP implementation couldn't. > > But it only really matters if someone can read them. If they aren't sent > over the network en clair, and very few people even have an account on the > LDAP server, pfft. > > > >Like DNS is a distributed database, but full > > >of name server assumptions and using an antiquated network format > > >(and on-disk format too if you're using BIND). > > > > what's wrong with on-disk format? I'm fond of saying: > > "my application speaks file." > > Well, I think you misread that. I'm saying the zone file syntax is > unnecessarily picky about syntax. I assume you know what BIND's > on-disk format for the zone file looks like. Here's part of the > file for a zone using tinydns (slightly anonymized): > > .tld:65.61.170.80:a:259200 > =nexus.tld:123.19.53.1:86400 > =foo.tld:123.42.171.1:86400 > =bar.tld:123.42.171.2:86400 > .sec.tld:123.42.171.1:a:259200 > .sec.tld:123.42.171.2:b:259200 > +ntp.tld:123.16.53.1:86400 > +time.tld:123.16.53.1:86400 > +timehost.tld:123.16.53.1:86400 > +ns.tld:65.61.170.80:86400 > +mail.tld:65.61.170.82:86400 > +smtp.tld:65.61.170.82:86400 > +mx.tld:65.61.170.82:86400 > @tld:65.61.170.82:a::86400 > > Notice how there is no sequence number, no semicolons, no braces, > no complicated SOA header, etc. If the file's mtime changes, it > re-reads the file... no sending named a signal to force a re-read. > No sequence number needed to trigger a NOTIFY to the slave. > And all the reverse records are created automatically, thus not > requiring a second zone. All in all, for _most_ purposes, it's > far simpler and elegant than the BIND zone file format. > Actually, I'm pretty sure tinydns requires extra configuration to send and receive NOTIFY. It falls somewhat short of full BIND compatibility, though part of that could be due to anti-competetive behaviour. > > >How hard can it be to have a distributed read-only database? Presumably > > >it's okay to do all writes from an administrative console, and I'm not > > >sure what LDAP buys you over a database query. > > What I learned is that LDAP is more than a user database, the reason why > LDAP makes sense is to centralize _multiple_ databases (using the general > term). For example, storing /etc/printcap, or DHCP information, etc. > > But mostly I was rambling. > > > A friend of mine is sort of an expert on this stuff. Kerberos is a > > better way to authenticate against an LDAP directory than direct LDAP, > > because it's more secure. > > > > There's no question that we want LDAP, at least for now. Sure, we can > > run on ssl, but the pool of trusted parties becomes much larger. > > Well, I'm sort of a student on crypto, insofar as I've published on > the subject, and implemented it in network security products, and > so on. > > Let me step back a bit; what are your requirements? Do you want to > centralize all the authentication, or do you want to decentralize it > as much as possible? Is it just LDAP that you wish to secure, or > do you wish to secure other services? Are all the services you LDAP will replace Oracle for the authentication of all services. We are mostly a virtual organization, so there are no LAN services, only web, mail, ssh, etc.. > wish to offer kerberized or open-source (and are you prepared to > modify them if they aren't kerberized)? Do you have any need for > offline authentication, like what certificates do? Will you be > authenticating services to the users, or users to the services, > or both? Do you already have a CA in your plans, or would you like > to get by without one? Will you be revoking credentials, and if so, > what time constraint is that under? Do you need resistance against > a single failure of the authentication machine, or can you live > with having service disrupted if/when it goes down? > You should always revoke credentials after some time period. These are implementation details, however, not belonging in our requirements. I'm fully aware that I'm going to have to write a bit of authentication code, I'm trying to decide what I need to support. > > What I was really trying to get at is, more or less, how might > > Kerberos itself be overblown, and is there anything intermediate. > > I really like this simplified explanation of kerb: > http://web.mit.edu/kerberos/www/dialogue.html > > More here: > http://web.mit.edu/kerberos/www/papers.html > > It gets a little confusing when they talk about authenticators, > but I think it should be understandable to anyone (even if they > aren't versed in crypto) as long as they are fairly sharp, as > you seem to be. I still think they should have used a bit > more protocol notation. > > If I understand it correctly, you do still have to have > synchronized clocks between the servers and the kerb server, > so that could be a stumbling block too. There's no problem synchronizing between the servers, which we control all of - it's the applications we don't centrally control. I'm building the front-seat applications, but I want to make sure there is passenger room for chapters and other small groups with their own developers, using basically whatever they please. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 17:28:00 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 17:28:04 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages In-Reply-To: <77be04730612051238x1323fc3cwdf702992e525d1e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061205192721.GD8161@subspacefield.org> <20061205202505.GA26870@subspacefield.org> <77be04730612051238x1323fc3cwdf702992e525d1e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061205232800.GD10063@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 02:38:22PM -0600, Justizin wrote: > Keep in mind that XP and its' big brother Agile came after test-driven > development. Did not know that. What is the Agile software dev method? > Once they all pass, you at least have what you thought you needed, and > you can decide if it is what you need. ;) > It's really nice when you have a few hundred observers, btw. ;) Hah. > XP has more to do with formalizing an ad-hoc requirements and > assurance/testing process than with establishing the idea of > test-driven development, if you ask me. Follow the trail of > literature. Haven't allocated the time, SE is a pretty big field, but sometimes smacks more of philosophy than science... at least I own a copy of the mythical man-month and such... even if I haven't read it. I think I know what it's about: "Nine women can't have a baby in a month." -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 17:54:46 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 17:54:48 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: XP/Agile vs. CMMI (was Re: SLOC was Re: PHP Eats Rails...) In-Reply-To: References: <77be04730612051214g5d277635h80707258b6a96a0a@mail.gmail.com> <20061205214218.4AB6ADBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: <20061205235446.GG10063@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 04:16:27PM -0600, Robert Pearson wrote: > >Based on what I observed, if people had actually bothered to design > >something before going off and coding (under the guise of prototyping), > >much of the arse-pain could have been avoided. I think that some people really need to write something, a prototype, before some of the issues become clear. Because really, writing code is an exercise in going from general ideas to details. I think that if anyone described a problem in enough detail you could probably code it. I suspect that it's true to different degrees in different people, and on different projects. I suspect that the more coding you do, the more farther down the road you can see before coding. However, if you get the greybeards together and they can create a design architecture and parcel it out to the people without such foresight, then I think it's a win all 'round. I used to be a DBA/SysAd for Deja News, and they started doing XP, but management found that it took twice as long to code anything, and it was clear that we weren't in the kind of business where an implementation flaw caused someone to die or something. Since we were the only ones running our code, we didn't have an installed base to consider. So the XP enthusiasm diminished quickly, and everyone went back to solo coding, although I hope some of the testing stuff stuck. At a later software development job, I wrote this for some co-workers: http://www.subspacefield.org/~travis/email/maintain.txt It's just some of my thoughts on writing maintainable code, mainly testing strategies and idioms. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 18:01:24 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 18:01:26 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 03:54:47PM -0600, Robert Pearson wrote: > The only coding "rule of thumb" measure I have heard of is IBM's > famous, or infamous, 10 lines of "tested" code a day. That's odd. I recall hearing somewhere, contrary to assertions in this thread, that the difference in productivity between the best developer and the worst (as measured in SLOCs) is several orders of magnitude. It was argued, and I believe, that coding is one profession where this great disparity exists, and thus where proficiency can reap relative rewards that are out of scale for other professions. For example, if you're a research chemist, I really doubt they care about how well you can titrate a solution. It just doesn't matter in the overall scheme of things, most of the time. However, if one person can write 100 error-free SLOCs per diem, and another person gets out 1, then the former is far more valuable. Of course, this assumes the code isn't being padded, that the code quality and density is equivalent... obviously anyone can unroll loops the cut-and-paste way... Opinions? -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 18:38:00 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 18:38:02 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] kerberos In-Reply-To: <77be04730612051512t6edf4c9ar231bd16ba83fadb@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730611190805j15309c36j378be59a197c2433@mail.gmail.com> <20061120025842.GA10115@spoonix.com> <77be04730611200015g54cfb0d2kd906742fb9d97f8a@mail.gmail.com> <20061128201910.GD2331@nexus.subspacefield.org> <77be04730611281513h2e861191wfffcd759e66ce3ad@mail.gmail.com> <20061205225058.GC10063@subspacefield.org> <77be04730612051512t6edf4c9ar231bd16ba83fadb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061206003800.GB13943@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 05:12:10PM -0600, Justizin wrote: > Actually, I'm pretty sure tinydns requires extra configuration to send > and receive NOTIFY. Well, it doesn't require a sequence number, because it can just look at the mtime. tinydns doesn't actually do anything but respond to non-recursive requests; to do a zone transfer you need axfrdns. > It falls somewhat short of full BIND > compatibility, though part of that could be due to anti-competetive > behaviour. Yeah, well, everything DJB writes that I know of, falls short of compatibility with anything not written by DJB. And unfortunately, he hasn't written a distro or OS yet, so I have to learn startup/stop procedures for DJB's code in addition to the distro's mechanism. Grr. > >Let me step back a bit; what are your requirements? Do you want to > >centralize all the authentication, or do you want to decentralize it > >as much as possible? Is it just LDAP that you wish to secure, or > >do you wish to secure other services? Are all the services you > > LDAP will replace Oracle for the authentication of all services. User authentication or server authentication or both? > There's no problem synchronizing between the servers, which we control > all of - it's the applications we don't centrally control. > I'm > building the front-seat applications, but I want to make sure there is > passenger room for chapters and other small groups with their own > developers, using basically whatever they please. Well if flexibility is what you want, SASL, particularly GSSAPI, fits that bill. It's a pain to configure, but it can do any sort of authentication you fancy. Also consider keynote for a authentication-to-authorization framework and policy language: http://www.crypto.com/trustmgt/kn.html I can get the source if you need it, since the main site for it is down (damn those edu pages... always disappearing with the graduate). Anyhow, if you re-wrote it in python, you'd be my personal hero for ever and ever. I hate seeing security code written in C... unless it's really performance-critical... -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From kell at spoonix.com Tue Dec 5 18:42:15 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Tue Dec 5 18:42:08 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] thoughts on languages In-Reply-To: <20061205232800.GD10063@subspacefield.org> References: <20061205192721.GD8161@subspacefield.org> <20061205202505.GA26870@subspacefield.org> <77be04730612051238x1323fc3cwdf702992e525d1e3@mail.gmail.com> <20061205232800.GD10063@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061206004215.GA30226@spoonix.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 05:28:00PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 02:38:22PM -0600, Justizin wrote: > > Keep in mind that XP and its' big brother Agile came after test-driven > > development. > > Did not know that. What is the Agile software dev method? I consider it to be XP, but without the hype. Again, wikipedia's entry for "agile development" has a great summary, but the even shorter version is: 1) the development of the whole system is basically just a series of "iterations" that last 2-4 weeks 2) customer sets the goal for what the software should do at the end of the iteration... customer only get to pick one target, though 3) team spends all week working on that (and only that) functionality 4) customer signs off on the work or sends team back to redo it until he's satisfied Next iteration: customer picks a new target, goto 1, repeat until customer is satisfied with the product. The idea here is that the customer can see and influence development of the software and will be able to reprioritize development effort to add in features he forgot to mention during the requirements gathering phase or drop the features that don't really make a whole lot of sense once he sees them in action. It also puts the customer in control of when something is ready to ship and avoids the snarky "You geeks would never come out of beta if we didn't force you to" attitude that the PowerPoint and Excel crowd seem to have. You still need to do upfront requirements gathering and some design/architecting... but the "agile" part means that those requirements aren't set in stone and that the team is organized to handle surprises better (because of the shorter timeline). Weak points are: 1) it's a little harder to schedule (offset by the fact that it's easier to gauge progress, though) 2) the customer has to remain involved... if they get bored with the meetings at the end of the iteration, you're screwed and might as well go back to CMMI 3) developers have to have some self-discipline not to explore interesting side avenues during development... you only do enough coding to implement the feature that was requested for that iteration It's harder to pull off than it sounds, though. :) -- K. Spoon From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 18:52:56 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 18:52:57 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] AoE results In-Reply-To: <20061205220202.GE27856@spoonix.com> References: <20061127123012.GA11289@spoonix.com> <456B231E.30705@gmail.com> <20061127202052.GB14442@spoonix.com> <20061128113904.GA21440@spoonix.com> <20061205204046.GB10063@subspacefield.org> <20061205220202.GE27856@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <20061206005256.GA23366@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 04:02:02PM -0600, K. Spoon wrote: > The big problem with ATA is that it foists management of the bus onto > your CPU. With SCSI, you generally have a dedicated processor on the > card that can play traffic cop and all the CPU has to do is handle > interrupts. Those cards, like hardware RAID, cost a lot to design, and sooner or later they become deccelerators rather than accelerators, because you're Quad Xeon P4 has more than enough cycles to handle interrupts compared to the 8MHz 80186 on the card (stats totally made up). > A good demonstration of this is what happens when you are doing a large > write to a filesystem on an IDE drive that has low memory. After a > certain point (about 256MB if you've got a drive with an 8MB cache) the > kernel will attempt to push more data to the drive than it can handle. > The kernel will call pdflush() and attempt to buffer stuff to system > memory... Interesting. > but when that runs out, it'll try and use swap. Why doesn't it just pause? > If the swap > is on the same drive as the one you're hammering, the system load will > start climbing geometrically because the proc is trying to handle not > only the I/O duty for the write, but for the swap activity as well. Ugh, yeah, that's why I see systems with one IDE drive die with load averages of 10 and others with the same specs can actually be responsive with load averages of 140... I/O thrashing will kill a server much faster than CPU monopolization. > For the SATA drive on the workstation, yes. For the PATA drive in the > shelf server, no... all I did was hardset the BIOS to run the disks at > PIO4. Well, there's the main cause of the CPU load. Of course it will take lots of CPU time if you send out a byte at a time (okay, N bytes... I don't know how many PIO4 does)... that's one interrupt per N bytes instead of one per DMA transfer... DMA can handle moving sequential bytes over the bus just fine without your CPU micromanaging :-) -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From kell at spoonix.com Tue Dec 5 19:29:32 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Tue Dec 5 19:29:26 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 06:01:24PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > However, if one person can write 100 error-free SLOCs per > diem, and another person gets out 1, then the former is far more > valuable. > > Of course, this assumes the code isn't being padded, that the > code quality and density is equivalent... obviously anyone can > unroll loops the cut-and-paste way... > > Opinions? Disagree 100%. Good code is elegant. And I mean that from a business standpoint... good code being defined as "less bugs, less money and effort to maintain". Most people rarely write elegant code on their first pass. The guy who's banging out 100 lines of code is the guy who's not refactoring. He's the guy that's going to be responsible for the 1500 line functions that have the 2 copies of the same 250 line blocks that could have easily been moved out to its own 40 line function, and that will cost you much time and frustration when it's time to work on version 2.0 and changes need to be made. He's the guy who's going to make you spend all night looking for the non-obvious logic bug because he took 20 lines to do what could have been done in 3. This guy isn't valuable... he's actually hurting you in the long run. And I imagine this is why Tyler and Justin felt the need to nip the idea of using more SLOC as a way to determine which languages was "better" in the first place. :) If you absolutely must use SLOC to gauge performance, your emphasis should be on producing *LESS*, not more. -- K. Spoon From kell at spoonix.com Tue Dec 5 19:47:32 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Tue Dec 5 19:47:24 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] AoE results In-Reply-To: <20061206005256.GA23366@subspacefield.org> References: <20061127123012.GA11289@spoonix.com> <456B231E.30705@gmail.com> <20061127202052.GB14442@spoonix.com> <20061128113904.GA21440@spoonix.com> <20061205204046.GB10063@subspacefield.org> <20061205220202.GE27856@spoonix.com> <20061206005256.GA23366@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061206014732.GC30226@spoonix.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 06:52:56PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 04:02:02PM -0600, K. Spoon wrote: > Those cards, like hardware RAID, cost a lot to design, and sooner or > later they become deccelerators rather than accelerators, because you're > Quad Xeon P4 has more than enough cycles to handle interrupts compared > to the 8MHz 80186 on the card (stats totally made up). Even better, you can use SMP affinity to assign a single proc to handle the load. But... what's the point? You don't need a Xeon P4 to handle disk management. It's not a compute intensive job. Wouldn't you rather have that processor working on important stuff like rendering the next frame of Quake 4, decompressing the next chunk of an MP3, compiling the next .c file in the kernel, or what have you? > > but when that runs out, it'll try and use swap. > > Why doesn't it just pause? If I knew this, I'd have a patch into Torvalds and crew. :) The pdflush() code hints that it should be pausing if more than 2 kthreads become active... but it doesn't. The kernel just keeps slamming data down the pipe. :( 2.6.15 and lower were horrible for this, but 2.6.17 seems to handle it a little more gracefully. > > For the SATA drive on the workstation, yes. For the PATA drive in the > > shelf server, no... all I did was hardset the BIOS to run the disks at > > PIO4. > > Well, there's the main cause of the CPU load. Except the CPU load was on the workstation (which was using DMA by driver default) and not the server (which was using PIO4 by bios setting). :) > DMA can > handle moving sequential bytes over the bus just fine without your > CPU micromanaging :-) The CPU is still involved in sending commands to the drive... DMA just relieves the CPU of having to copy data from userspace to the device. It's not as big of a win as it sounds like. :( -- K. Spoon From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 19:48:43 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Tue Dec 5 19:48:46 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: XP/Agile vs. CMMI (was Re: SLOC was Re: PHP Eats Rails...) In-Reply-To: <77be04730612051407l31705764laafb58817755fe1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730612051214g5d277635h80707258b6a96a0a@mail.gmail.com> <20061205214218.4AB6ADBA1@gherkin.frus.com> <77be04730612051407l31705764laafb58817755fe1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4576217B.1090602@gmail.com> Justizin wrote: > The problem with big design is that needs change and people often > mis-state requirements. If you can get something in someone's hands, > you can move forward. You are talking about the waterfall model here and that is definitely not synonymous with CMMI. The spiral model, for instance, say to do exactly what you are advocating. > CMMI is antithetical to agile. it's fat and slow by definition, and > that doesn't work for any industry these days. Not really. It does expect you to do documentation and testing though. It also wants you to measure what you are doing. It can be customized (the intent is for it to be) for most development models. I don't think the ideas you advocate are appropriate for systems where failures mean that people may die or equipment worth millions may be destroyed. -- Bruce From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 19:55:08 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Tue Dec 5 19:55:12 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4575FC7C.4050309@fusemeister.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> <457564A0.1040200@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4575FC7C.4050309@fusemeister.com> Message-ID: <457622FC.60805@gmail.com> Brinkley Harrell wrote: > Ah, but you've never really programmed until you've had to actually wire > your own punchboard (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_407). Never did that, but punched binary cards manually. > Or, have to toggle your program into the console switches!!! Been there, done that. -- Bruce From tyler at bleepsoft.com Tue Dec 5 20:29:59 2006 From: tyler at bleepsoft.com (R. Tyler Ballance) Date: Tue Dec 5 20:30:04 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: <0283E602-B64A-4A3F-8F50-3B2897C324A3@bleepsoft.com> References: <0283E602-B64A-4A3F-8F50-3B2897C324A3@bleepsoft.com> Message-ID: So, I've been actually working and slacking off on my "man this is so messed up I better have a beer and tell the LUG about" duties :) Today, San Antonio's Daily WTF ENTERPRISE EDITION! I have been working with this one client since about September, or maybe early October. Given the obvious lack of technical knowledge, I've tried to give them the benefit of the doubt I mean, they are only a software and managed services company, so I should keep my expectations low. Just this week however, I have made a major break through, I walked a tech through an installation process of openSUSE 10.1 on a machine so I could then set it up for VPN (openvpn) for my own purposes so I could finally access parts of their enterprise denied to me previously. With this new machine, and a gateway, I _finally_ had access to their Subversion repository, which I had not been "allowed" to access previously. See, I'm developing an application that is helping to steer the company into the growing open source (primarily Linux) market, therefore it is only logical that my source code not be integrated at all with the rest of theirs, leaving me to commit everything to my local Perforce repository, and rely on emailing source snapshots if/when I needed to collaborate with another developer. Not only is this a good appetizer WTF, it's an enterprise WTF. With access to the Subversion repository, I started checking things out, and looking for more information, specifically documentation on their systems that had been kept hidden from me from a vindictive member of management (another WTF entirely). I found myself looking in the directory titled "website/" and this company, like some open source projects, didn't rely on any sort of dynamic content management system, they relied on periodic checkouts of flat-static- HTML from Subversion to deploy on their publicly facing website (borderline WTF). I found some files that looked interesting, namely because of their .mht file extension (Microsoft web archive it seems). After rummaging through some of these, and verifying that these were on the public website, I was forced to walk to the fridge and grab a beer, reclining slightly in my desk chair in amazement. Here are a choice selection of the web archive titles, and the pages they archived: Multi-threading Basics: --url snipped-- What is a thread?: http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/essential/ threads/definition.html The Advantages of Multi-threaded Applications: --url snipped-- The first and the third URLs are snipped after I did a quick Google search to ensure anonymity and found out that Google had magically discovered these pages and by searching for the documents in some cases these web archives were amongst the first results, even higher than the original article. Most nights I work (I prefer it to working during the day), so I'm starting to drink at what is equivalent to 8-9am for most of you day- workers. No good will become of this. In software, the difference between regular, and enterprise level is only in the size of the WTF. Go go gadget Shiner Bock, Cheers. R. Tyler Ballance: Lead Mac Developer at bleep. software contact: tyler@bleepsoft.com | jabber: tyler@jabber.geekisp.com From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 20:31:17 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Tue Dec 5 20:31:23 2006 Subject: Software engineering (was Re: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly) In-Reply-To: <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <45762B75.1080405@gmail.com> Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 03:54:47PM -0600, Robert Pearson wrote: >> The only coding "rule of thumb" measure I have heard of is IBM's >> famous, or infamous, 10 lines of "tested" code a day. > > That's odd. I recall hearing somewhere, contrary to assertions in > this thread, that the difference in productivity between the best > developer and the worst (as measured in SLOCs) is several orders > of magnitude. True. It was first widely documented by Boehm: Software Engineering Economics. > It was argued, and I believe, that coding is one > profession where this great disparity exists, and thus where > proficiency can reap relative rewards that are out of scale for > other professions. For example, if you're a research chemist, I > really doubt they care about how well you can titrate a solution. > It just doesn't matter in the overall scheme of things, most of the > time. However, if one person can write 100 error-free SLOCs per > diem, and another person gets out 1, then the former is far more > valuable. This has been documented in several places and matches the experience of many. Note that a programmer's productivity does not always translate to another application domain. > Of course, this assumes the code isn't being padded, that the > code quality and density is equivalent... obviously anyone can > unroll loops the cut-and-paste way... One of the great "productivity enhancers" is reuse. It always takes more time to start from scratch than from a similar code base. If programmer A writes 100 SLOC/day and programmer B reuses 100 SLOC/day and adds 10 more/day, which is more productive? As I said earlier today, measuring SLOC is non-trivial. You can't just count newlines. A few years ago I wrote a program to count SLOC for C/C++. It counted: lines with code lines with comments lines with both code and comments I also wrote code to measure token counts, token length, tokens per function, etc. Its amazing what static analysis of code can show. There was pretty good correlation between some of the metrics and subjective evaluation by panels of evaluators of the code too. For instance, in Linux 2.6.12.5's xfs filesystem code the c programs give: Lines_of_code Blank_Lines Comment_Lines Comments_with_Code 56887 19124 13559 4070 But all 79 files have 31 lines of comments at the beginning with the copyright so the comment lines need to be reduced to 11,110. BTW, this doesn't count .h files. Can you tell from the above that the code is good? No, but my initial reaction is encouraging due to the comment density. OTOH, I have no idea how long it took to write this code or how many programmers were involved. I can say that if someone was writing a new filesystem that looking at these metrics would give a first order approximation of what it would take. -- Bruce From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 20:49:45 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Tue Dec 5 20:49:48 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <45762FC9.5040701@gmail.com> K. Spoon wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 06:01:24PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: >> However, if one person can write 100 error-free SLOCs per >> diem, and another person gets out 1, then the former is far more >> valuable. >> >> Of course, this assumes the code isn't being padded, that the >> code quality and density is equivalent... obviously anyone can >> unroll loops the cut-and-paste way... >> >> Opinions? > > Disagree 100%. > > Good code is elegant. And I mean that from a business standpoint... > good code being defined as "less bugs, less money and effort to > maintain". Most people rarely write elegant code on their first pass. > > The guy who's banging out 100 lines of code is the guy who's not > refactoring. He's the guy that's going to be responsible for the 1500 > line functions that have the 2 copies of the same 250 line blocks that > could have easily been moved out to its own 40 line function, and that > will cost you much time and frustration when it's time to work on > version 2.0 and changes need to be made. He's the guy who's going to > make you spend all night looking for the non-obvious logic bug because > he took 20 lines to do what could have been done in 3. > > This guy isn't valuable... he's actually hurting you in the long run. > > And I imagine this is why Tyler and Justin felt the need to nip the idea > of using more SLOC as a way to determine which languages was "better" in > the first place. :) > > If you absolutely must use SLOC to gauge performance, your emphasis > should be on producing *LESS*, not more. I see your disagree and raise a new disagree 100%. You are using SLOC counts as a measure of quality. Thats wrong. You can't measure productivity with different levels of quality. The code from both programmers needs to be vetted for quality. In your comments above, you automatically assume that the person producing more SLOC is producing lower quality code. In many cases, the high SLOC producer also produces better quality code. There has to be a *process* in place that demands quality. Then SLOC can be a good measure. -- Bruce From mitchthompson at satx.rr.com Tue Dec 5 21:41:30 2006 From: mitchthompson at satx.rr.com (Mitch Thompson) Date: Tue Dec 5 21:41:02 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4575FC7C.4050309@fusemeister.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> <457564A0.1040200@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4575FC7C.4050309@fusemeister.com> Message-ID: <45763BEA.7040001@satx.rr.com> Brinkley Harrell wrote: > Geoff wrote: >> {snip} >> >> I knew -that- was commin'... but not -nearly- as often as I'll hear >> "what color was your dinosaur?" or >> "when you fart, does dust come out?" or stuff like that there. >> > > Ah, but you've never really programmed until you've had to actually > wire your own punchboard (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_407). > > Or, have to toggle your program into the console switches!!! > When I was at DeVry, we had 8080 trainers with octal keypads and a mnemonic cheatsheet. We had to write programs in Assembler and look up each command's octal equivalent to punch in. When I worked in a telephone switch in the Air Force, we had several methods of inputting data: We had a Data General Nova-3 which could force-feed the memory (ferrite core) in 70 seconds or so. If that died, we had an IBM 026 punch card reader, which took about 4 hours to load memory (provided it didn't jam). If THAT died, we had to toggle each 40-bit word in one at a time: 40+ hours. Gosh, I'm starting to feel old. From jbharrell at fusemeister.com Tue Dec 5 21:58:31 2006 From: jbharrell at fusemeister.com (Brinkley Harrell) Date: Tue Dec 5 21:58:49 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <45763BEA.7040001@satx.rr.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> <457564A0.1040200@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4575FC7C.4050309@fusemeister.com> <45763BEA.7040001@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <45763FE7.4060102@fusemeister.com> Mitch Thompson wrote: > Brinkley Harrell wrote: > >> {Snip} >> >> Ah, but you've never really programmed until you've had to actually >> wire your own punchboard (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_407). >> >> Or, have to toggle your program into the console switches!!! >> >> > When I was at DeVry, we had 8080 trainers with octal keypads and a > mnemonic cheatsheet. We had to write programs in Assembler and look up > each command's octal equivalent to punch in. > > When I worked in a telephone switch in the Air Force, we had several > methods of inputting data: We had a Data General Nova-3 which could > force-feed the memory (ferrite core) in 70 seconds or so. If that died, > we had an IBM 026 punch card reader, which took about 4 hours to load > memory (provided it didn't jam). If THAT died, we had to toggle each > 40-bit word in one at a time: 40+ hours. > > Gosh, I'm starting to feel old. > > Ah, one-ups -- One of the first computers I worked on in the Navy was all assembly and hand-optimized. There was nothing but drum memory storage for it and the optimization for it was to position each computer word on the drum memory so that it was just moving under the disk head when the previous one was completed. Of course, our input for this beast was on paper tape which always read correctly!! -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brinkley Harrell http://www.fusemeister.com From tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org Tue Dec 5 22:32:16 2006 From: tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org (tweeks) Date: Tue Dec 5 22:32:19 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] file server design In-Reply-To: <20061205174854.GB20645@subspacefield.org> References: <20061205174854.GB20645@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <200612052232.16492.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> On Tuesday 05 December 2006 11:48, Travis H. wrote: > So I read about this trick; make each filesystem a loopback onto a file, > that is then stored on a file system. Export the loopback filesystems > as AoE or iSCSI. Now, to resize, or copy, or anything, you can use the > files instead of a block device. You can expand one "filesystem" or the > other without doing _any_ shuffling about. And you can probably even > create them as sparse files! I remember back in 2002 Kelly and I encountered a vendor who had done this on a hacked up version of the 2.2 kernel (in the loop kernel code). They basically just created a bunch of 4MB files... and linked them together to make whatever sized filesystem they wanted on the fly. Pretty cool. Combined with their chroot/virtual server system, it offered a pretty cool setup. Too bad they didn't release their code back to the world... (but would provide it to customers)... Tweeks From travis at subspacefield.org Tue Dec 5 22:59:50 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Tue Dec 5 22:59:51 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] faking delegations in BIND Message-ID: <20061206045950.GA26471@subspacefield.org> Hey folks, I have a fake TLD in DNS for my internal network. I know how to delegate for this tld in dnscache, but not in BIND. I've scoured the intarweb, and even RTFM for the BIND administrator's guide, and still haven't found out how to do it. Basically, I just want to say "the name server for .tld are w.x.y.z" and be done with it, without that actual TLD being in the DNS hierarchy. I have tried putting it in my hints file, and it complains that it's not in the root, and I've tried creating zone files with just NS listed... anyone know how to get this to work? I'm delegating to a tinydns server, too, so I can't just rsync the zone file or anything... -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 00:22:46 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 00:22:52 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: <0283E602-B64A-4A3F-8F50-3B2897C324A3@bleepsoft.com> References: <0283E602-B64A-4A3F-8F50-3B2897C324A3@bleepsoft.com> Message-ID: <20061206062246.GA6768@subspacefield.org> On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 04:12:22PM -0600, R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > assert(_state != _state); LOL > (While I was digging up the files for this message, the server my new > client interfaces with crashed because of an assertion...leaving > assertions in production systems should be punishable by a thorough > trout-slapping) Have to partially disagree here. If the asserts are written properly, and it's clear that the above assertion doesn't know why it exists, _and_ the user of the program cares about the accuracy of their data, or the security of their network daemon, then they should leave the assertions in. Bruce Schneier says that "turning of assertions in production code is equivalent to unbuckling your seat belts when you finish Driver's Ed" (paraphrased). I think that's going a bit far. But what an assertion _should_ be used for is detecting an internal inconsistency that the developer thought shouldn't happen. In cases like that, the program has strayed into a really weird area, and it would be pointless to hope for it to correct the error, since the developer thought this state should never be reached. In security-relevant code, continuing operation could be dangerous. With no way to correct or continue, the only remaining alternative is to abort. Now, in an environment that values availability over correctness, sure, leave out the asserts. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 00:47:23 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 00:47:28 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Sun's Project Black Box In-Reply-To: <45705027.6080901@nvision2020.com> References: <45705027.6080901@nvision2020.com> Message-ID: <20061206064723.GB6768@subspacefield.org> On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 09:54:15AM -0600, Dean McCall wrote: > Has anyone else seen Sun's project black box project? Quite an > interesting idea on modular data centers design...good fodder for a > Friday... > https://photos.sun.com/page/1182 Those pictures give me flashbacks of reading the book "Neuromancer" -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 00:55:35 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 00:55:36 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Upgrade Fedora core 3 to core 6 In-Reply-To: <4571C07A.6070007@cox-internet.com> References: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> <20061202171356.E3290DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> <2d1185c80612020942n717622f2r621bf1e0a3e169a9@mail.gmail.com> <4571C07A.6070007@cox-internet.com> Message-ID: <20061206065535.GC6768@subspacefield.org> On Sat, Dec 02, 2006 at 12:05:46PM -0600, Dennis Myhand wrote: > [68 lines of quoted material] > The Fedora disk partitioning tool will do all you need when it comes to > taking out Bill's bloat. Jimini Christmas, 68 lines of quoted text followed by two lines of actual email?! Does anyone here know how to delete the stuff we've already seen? At least he didn't top post. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 01:02:55 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 01:02:56 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] mysql3 to mysql4 database update In-Reply-To: <57800.127.0.0.1.1165060771.squirrel@localhost> References: <57800.127.0.0.1.1165060771.squirrel@localhost> Message-ID: <20061206070255.GD6768@subspacefield.org> On Sat, Dec 02, 2006 at 05:59:31AM -0600, Luis Garza wrote: > I have stopped mysqld and backed up my /var/lib/mysql. > Question: > After I have updated my mysql server from mysql3 to mysql4, will my > database be alright. Will I still be able to access them without > problems? > Is there a conversion process? Why don't you use mysqldump instead? It gives you a SQL file that can be tweaked if you need to, but should load more-or-less onto SQL databases. The flat file may come in handy should the tables ever become corrupted. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 01:14:56 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 01:14:57 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <20061206071456.GE6768@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 07:29:32PM -0600, K. Spoon wrote: **** IMPORTANT PARAGRAPH FOLLOWS **** > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 06:01:24PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > > Of course, this assumes the code isn't being padded, that the > > code quality and density is equivalent... obviously anyone can > > unroll loops the cut-and-paste way... > Good code is elegant. And I mean that from a business standpoint... > good code being defined as "less bugs, less money and effort to > maintain". Most people rarely write elegant code on their first pass. > ... > The guy who's banging out 100 lines of code is the guy who's not > refactoring. He's the guy that's going to be responsible for the 1500 > line functions that have the 2 copies of the same 250 line blocks that > ... You missed a whole paragraph when reading, and thus, an important assumption in the scenario. > If you absolutely must use SLOC to gauge performance, your emphasis > should be on producing *LESS*, not more. I can easily produce 0 error-free lines of code every day, non-stop, for days, even weeks on end, in any language and on any project. Clearly that makes me the best coder you've met. And, I can do it holding down ten or more similar jobs. How much is it worth to you? I'm feeling generous, so if it goes into six figures, I'll even come by and corrupt your source code repository. $$$$!!!! -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From storey at clamp.ws Wed Dec 6 01:18:55 2006 From: storey at clamp.ws (Storey Clamp) Date: Wed Dec 6 01:18:58 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Computer Show In-Reply-To: References: <4574F72A.80703@gvtc.com> Message-ID: <45766EDF.5000405@clamp.ws> twistedpickles wrote: > > pardon but what is the computer show? A computer flea market, some new, mostly old, computers and parts. Satlug always has a booth to promote Linux and other open source software. There is another club always there also. It is called Alamo PC, and at their meetings, they charge you money to listen to people talk about the virtues of Micro$oft. See http://pcshows.com , and you can print coupon for a dollar off the five dollar admission. From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 04:43:35 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 04:43:37 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] [Fwd: San Antonio Open Source Research] In-Reply-To: <77be04730611290655s27958e8fva43ed966874494e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <45631C11.8010805@gmail.com> <77be04730611210749x74b51459v415602866c5600aa@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730611290655s27958e8fva43ed966874494e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061206104335.GA6342@subspacefield.org> On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 08:55:29AM -0600, Justizin wrote: > Sadly, like many organizations of the old economy, they pay people who > can't afford college degrees very little, reinforcing the status quo. > I was told by my interviewer that she did not understand much of what > went on, but made twice as much as the people who do, even when they > are twice her age. I don't grok this. Are you implying that the interviewer had a degree and the people who understood stuff don't, or... > the low quality of higher education combined with a business climate > that is unfriendly to self-educated individuals. Well, the town is short on high-tech businesses and employees, that's for sure. And low tech means; old fashioned. Traditional. Conventional. Good old boys. But honestly, for most high-tech needs, I find a broadband connection, a credit card, a few computers, a clean apartment and air conditioning make meatspace largely irrelevant... except for having someone to do nerdy stuff with, and lack of a Fry's to go to when you have excess cash. If only I could write code from home as a job and get paid more than the cost of living in India... can't move to India, they have enough people already. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 04:45:37 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 04:45:38 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] [Fwd: San Antonio Open Source Research] In-Reply-To: <20061129170123.991A8DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> References: <20061129170123.991A8DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: <20061206104537.GB6342@subspacefield.org> On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 11:01:23AM -0600, Bob Tracy wrote: > Independent of any other considerations, I'm sure cost of living is > high on the list. Of course your equity in the house would be greater if you moved to a high-cost area and worked for a while... -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 04:50:42 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 04:50:47 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] [Fwd: San Antonio Open Source Research] In-Reply-To: <345e55a50611291053j4ec3061cmc50db84ad4ae0c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <45631C11.8010805@gmail.com> <77be04730611210749x74b51459v415602866c5600aa@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730611290655s27958e8fva43ed966874494e1@mail.gmail.com> <345e55a50611291053j4ec3061cmc50db84ad4ae0c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061206105042.GC6342@subspacefield.org> On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 12:53:20PM -0600, Greg Willden wrote: > I work for SwRI and we use a lot of Linux. All of our major systems > in the Signal Exploitation and Geolocation Division Coolest. Division. Name. Ever. :-) -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 04:58:19 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 04:58:23 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] ISSA Geeks Night Out Presentation on "Cyber Terrorism" In-Reply-To: <000001c714b3$222e9c50$1764a8c0@southpark.internal> References: <200611301152.22732.tweeks@rackspace.com> <000001c714b3$222e9c50$1764a8c0@southpark.internal> Message-ID: <20061206105819.GD6342@subspacefield.org> On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 01:09:58PM -0600, Mitch Thompson wrote: > Yup, saying 'cyber'-anything is marking yourself as clueless. > > It's read/heard everywhere on Security Hill. Actually, the guy they have teaching the 33d made a point of telling people not to use the insipid term "cyber-terrorism", that it's ignorant, that E-bay being down does not inspire terror in even the most timid of nerds. He showed some pictures of casualties of real terrorism, just in case anyone wasn't sure what it looked like. For the record, the pictures did not include screenshots of hacked websites or empty browser windows. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Wed Dec 6 05:10:10 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Wed Dec 6 05:10:31 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] [Fwd: San Antonio Open Source Research] In-Reply-To: <20061206105042.GC6342@subspacefield.org> References: <45631C11.8010805@gmail.com> <77be04730611210749x74b51459v415602866c5600aa@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730611290655s27958e8fva43ed966874494e1@mail.gmail.com> <345e55a50611291053j4ec3061cmc50db84ad4ae0c0@mail.gmail.com> <20061206105042.GC6342@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <4576A512.6030903@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Travis H. wrote: > On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 12:53:20PM -0600, Greg Willden wrote: > >> I work for SwRI and we use a lot of Linux. All of our major systems >> in the Signal Exploitation and Geolocation Division >> > > Coolest. Division. Name. Ever. :-) > Not as cool as D-17 - Non-destructiveTesting. Don't know if they're still open over there, or not. Greg Wilden? Not heard that name in a -long- time. Say hi to Steve Cerwin for me, Greg :-) -- -Geoff From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Wed Dec 6 05:14:02 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Wed Dec 6 05:14:17 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Upgrade Fedora core 3 to core 6 In-Reply-To: <20061206065535.GC6768@subspacefield.org> References: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> <20061202171356.E3290DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> <2d1185c80612020942n717622f2r621bf1e0a3e169a9@mail.gmail.com> <4571C07A.6070007@cox-internet.com> <20061206065535.GC6768@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <4576A5FA.4080101@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Travis H. wrote: > At least he didn't top post. > Even in Use(less)net, people still complain about those who top-post, and don't trim excessive quoting. -- -Geoff -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? From afcasta at texas.net Wed Dec 6 07:40:21 2006 From: afcasta at texas.net (Al Castanoli) Date: Wed Dec 6 07:37:56 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4575FB6C.5060702@fusemeister.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> <368c881c0612041919v5c8b5541m52b0eae822d8ef08@mail.gmail.com> <4575FB6C.5060702@fusemeister.com> Message-ID: <1165412421.6920.10.camel@linux> On Tue, 2006-12-05 at 17:06 -0600, Brinkley Harrell wrote: > Benjamin Temple wrote: > > it would be even worse is it had said "teletype with COBOL" Ive heard the > > language is hard to learn. > > > > {snip} > COBOL (ah, memories) is not hard to learn -- the question is "how > verbose do you want to be". As an example snatched right from Wikipedia, > if you wanted to write a statement to compute one of the roots of the > quadratic equation: > > X = (-B + SQRT( B^2 - 4 * A * C) ) / 2 * A > > one solution uses the compute verb: > > COMPUTE X = (-B + (B ** 2 - (4 * A * C)) **.5) / (2 * A). > > As an alternative, this could also be written as: > > MULTIPLY B BY B GIVING B-SQUARED. > MULTIPLY 4 BY A GIVING FOUR-A. > MULTIPLY FOUR-A BY C GIVING FOUR-A-C. > SUBTRACT FOUR-A-C FROM B-SQUARED GIVING RESULT-1. > COMPUTE RESULT-2 = RESULT-1 ** .5. > SUBTRACT B FROM RESULT-2 GIVING NUMERATOR. > MULTIPLY 2 BY A GIVING DENOMINATOR. > DIVIDE NUMERATOR BY DENOMINATOR GIVING X. > > But, it's really clear. > > Here some humor from Wikipedia: > > Aphorisms and humor about COBOL > > It has been said of languages like C, C++, and Java that the only way to > modify legacy code is to rewrite it - write once and write once again; > or write once and throw away. On the other hand, it has been said of > COBOL that there actually is one original COBOL program, and it only has > been copied and modified millions of times. > > The name "ADD 1 TO COBOL GIVING COBOL" has been suggested for a > hypothetical object-oriented dialect of COBOL, as a play on the name > C++. While this is meant to suggest that COBOL is inherently verbose, > the form given is more verbose than COBOL actually requires. > > Alternative expansions of the COBOL acronym have been suggested: > > * Compiles Only Because Of Luck > * Compiles Only By Odd Luck > * Completely Obsolete Business Oriented Language > * Completely Over and Beyond reason Or Logic > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Brinkley Harrell > http://www.fusemeister.com Thanks for the COBOL refresher - I thought I'd left it behind me when I left a Navy supply ship in 1979. Al Castanoli From kell at spoonix.com Wed Dec 6 08:45:07 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Wed Dec 6 08:45:00 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <20061206071456.GE6768@subspacefield.org> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> <20061206071456.GE6768@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061206144506.GA1907@spoonix.com> On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 01:14:56AM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 07:29:32PM -0600, K. Spoon wrote: > > **** IMPORTANT PARAGRAPH FOLLOWS **** > > > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 06:01:24PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > > > Of course, this assumes the code isn't being padded, that the > > > code quality and density is equivalent... obviously anyone can > > > unroll loops the cut-and-paste way... > You missed a whole paragraph when reading, and thus, an important > assumption in the scenario. I didn't miss it... it was a stupid premise. Like I said, few people write elegant code on their first pass, and someone who's churning out a lot of code is someone who's banking on the compiler or the QA team to catch their mistakes. > > If you absolutely must use SLOC to gauge performance, your emphasis > > should be on producing *LESS*, not more. > > I can easily produce 0 error-free lines of code every day, non-stop, > for days, even weeks on end, in any language and on any project. > Clearly that makes me the best coder you've met. And, I can do it > holding down ten or more similar jobs. How much is it worth to > you? I'm feeling generous, so if it goes into six figures, I'll > even come by and corrupt your source code repository. $$$$!!!! If you can accomplish the tasks I set out for you by producing 0 lines of code, not only will I pay you six figures but I'll even throw in royalties on the software revenue. Please go take a look at the anaconda source for RH's installer and then come back here and tell me more is better. Or, to use an example that hits a little closer to home since I seem to recall that you work at Rackspace... Would you agree that a tech support person who closes 100 tickets is more valuable than the one who closes 1? Of course, this assumes the tickets aren't just being closed, that solution quality and problem density are equivalent... obviously anyone can just go in and fix a DNS entry and close a ticket... -- K. Spoon From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 09:47:23 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 09:47:27 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <20061206144506.GA1907@spoonix.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> <20061206071456.GE6768@subspacefield.org> <20061206144506.GA1907@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612060747k74f2f97p11897618e20a0423@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, K. Spoon wrote: > On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 01:14:56AM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 07:29:32PM -0600, K. Spoon wrote: > > > > **** IMPORTANT PARAGRAPH FOLLOWS **** > > > > > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 06:01:24PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > > > > Of course, this assumes the code isn't being padded, that the > > > > code quality and density is equivalent... obviously anyone can > > > > unroll loops the cut-and-paste way... > > > You missed a whole paragraph when reading, and thus, an important > > assumption in the scenario. > > I didn't miss it... it was a stupid premise. Like I said, few people > write elegant code on their first pass, and someone who's churning out a > lot of code is someone who's banking on the compiler or the QA team to > catch their mistakes. > Mos def. Also important to keep in mind is that this is not a dichotomy: * Writing code that works today * Designing systems that will work tomorrow In fact, it's very difficult to ever reach the second goal if you don't stab at the first from time to time. IMO, that's the heart of agile/XP: Individuals and interactions over processes and tools Working software over comprehensive documentation Customer collaboration over contract negotiation Responding to change over following a plan > > > If you absolutely must use SLOC to gauge performance, your emphasis > > > should be on producing *LESS*, not more. > > > > I can easily produce 0 error-free lines of code every day, non-stop, > > for days, even weeks on end, in any language and on any project. > > Clearly that makes me the best coder you've met. And, I can do it > > holding down ten or more similar jobs. How much is it worth to > > you? I'm feeling generous, so if it goes into six figures, I'll > > even come by and corrupt your source code repository. $$$$!!!! > > If you can accomplish the tasks I set out for you by producing 0 lines > of code, not only will I pay you six figures but I'll even throw in > royalties on the software revenue. > > Please go take a look at the anaconda source for RH's installer and then come > back here and tell me more is better. > > Or, to use an example that hits a little closer to home since I seem to > recall that you work at Rackspace... Would you agree that a tech support > person who closes 100 tickets is more valuable than the one who closes > 1? > > Of course, this assumes the tickets aren't just being closed, that > solution quality and problem density are equivalent... obviously anyone can > just go in and fix a DNS entry and close a ticket... > In fact, when I worked very close to the stats at Rackspace that were used for firing and promotion, we often refused to provide statistics unless we knew how they were used, and we would only allow managers to let us know what they were *looking for*, rather than exactly what queries to execute. I'm not sure this is still going on, but we were pretty adamant about not printing out a list of names where the person at the end was likely to be fired. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From kell at spoonix.com Wed Dec 6 09:48:37 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Wed Dec 6 09:48:30 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <45762FC9.5040701@gmail.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> <45762FC9.5040701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061206154836.GA3432@spoonix.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 08:49:45PM -0600, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > I see your disagree and raise a new disagree 100%. You are using SLOC > counts as a measure of quality. Thats wrong. You can't measure > productivity with different levels of quality. The code from both > programmers needs to be vetted for quality. Yeah, yeah. :) I read Knuth's essay about how big O misled programmers into using a quicksort when a bubble sort was faster, too. I'll even grant you that programming is 1/3 science, 1/3 art, and 1/3 craft and that anyone who uses absolutes is asking for trouble. But if I'm on a team where everyone else is churning out 200 lines a day and the newly minted BS/CS is bragging about how he's doing 500... to me, that's a warning sign that someone needs to go check his work and reign him in if need be because if you don't there's at least one (and probably more) 3am gdb session and a daily WTF in your future. > In your comments above, you automatically assume that the person > producing more SLOC is producing lower quality code. In many cases, the > high SLOC producer also produces better quality code. If more is better quality, then why did you reduce the SLOC by 50% in your FORTRAN anecdote? Also, would that program not have been easier to maintain before then if it had always been 20K lines of code instead of 40K? -- K. Spoon From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 10:02:14 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 10:02:31 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <20061206154836.GA3432@spoonix.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> <45762FC9.5040701@gmail.com> <20061206154836.GA3432@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612060802t175e6d78see949dae1d54f11a@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, K. Spoon wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 08:49:45PM -0600, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > > I see your disagree and raise a new disagree 100%. You are using SLOC > > counts as a measure of quality. Thats wrong. You can't measure > > productivity with different levels of quality. The code from both > > programmers needs to be vetted for quality. > > Yeah, yeah. :) I read Knuth's essay about how big O misled programmers > into using a quicksort when a bubble sort was faster, too. I'll even > grant you that programming is 1/3 science, 1/3 art, and 1/3 craft and > that anyone who uses absolutes is asking for trouble. > > But if I'm on a team where everyone else is churning out 200 lines a day > and the newly minted BS/CS is bragging about how he's doing 500... to > me, that's a warning sign that someone needs to go check his work and > reign him in if need be because if you don't there's at least one (and > probably more) 3am gdb session and a daily WTF in your future. > Or you have an organizational problem, such as the new guy being the only person willing to enter a certain realm of code, eventually the only one who understands it, and also may become more productive in the raw sense than other team members who work in a broader codebase. Also, a productive programmer should write about ten lines of code per day, and some say negative ten. > > In your comments above, you automatically assume that the person > > producing more SLOC is producing lower quality code. In many cases, the > > high SLOC producer also produces better quality code. > > If more is better quality, then why did you reduce the SLOC by 50% in > your FORTRAN anecdote? Also, would that program not have been easier to > maintain before then if it had always been 20K lines of code instead of > 40K? > BTW, is anyone else in this thread ready to take this discussion to an ACM SIGPLAN conf and have it out over a few beers? ;) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From satlugmail1 at rcsinc.us Wed Dec 6 10:45:02 2006 From: satlugmail1 at rcsinc.us (Vinny Huckaba) Date: Wed Dec 6 10:44:57 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <1165412421.6920.10.camel@linux> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> <368c881c0612041919v5c8b5541m52b0eae822d8ef08@mail.gmail.com> <4575FB6C.5060702@fusemeister.com> <1165412421.6920.10.camel@linux> Message-ID: <4576F38E.5000805@rcsinc.us> Yeah flashbacks... I won 1st place in the state computer programming using COBOL back in the day. I'll have to find the award sandblast the dust off, and hang it up somewhere.. =) But then it would be too tempting to bring out the TRS-80 Model I and find the programs. Wait it would be 1906 to the programs... Better let it rest.. Al Castanoli wrote: > On Tue, 2006-12-05 at 17:06 -0600, Brinkley Harrell wrote: >> Benjamin Temple wrote: >>> it would be even worse is it had said "teletype with COBOL" Ive heard the >>> language is hard to learn. >>> >>> {snip} >> COBOL (ah, memories) is not hard to learn -- the question is "how >> verbose do you want to be". As an example snatched right from Wikipedia, >> if you wanted to write a statement to compute one of the roots of the >> quadratic equation: >> >> X = (-B + SQRT( B^2 - 4 * A * C) ) / 2 * A >> >> one solution uses the compute verb: >> >> COMPUTE X = (-B + (B ** 2 - (4 * A * C)) **.5) / (2 * A). >> >> As an alternative, this could also be written as: >> >> MULTIPLY B BY B GIVING B-SQUARED. >> MULTIPLY 4 BY A GIVING FOUR-A. >> MULTIPLY FOUR-A BY C GIVING FOUR-A-C. >> SUBTRACT FOUR-A-C FROM B-SQUARED GIVING RESULT-1. >> COMPUTE RESULT-2 = RESULT-1 ** .5. >> SUBTRACT B FROM RESULT-2 GIVING NUMERATOR. >> MULTIPLY 2 BY A GIVING DENOMINATOR. >> DIVIDE NUMERATOR BY DENOMINATOR GIVING X. >> >> But, it's really clear. >> >> Here some humor from Wikipedia: >> >> Aphorisms and humor about COBOL >> >> It has been said of languages like C, C++, and Java that the only way to >> modify legacy code is to rewrite it - write once and write once again; >> or write once and throw away. On the other hand, it has been said of >> COBOL that there actually is one original COBOL program, and it only has >> been copied and modified millions of times. >> >> The name "ADD 1 TO COBOL GIVING COBOL" has been suggested for a >> hypothetical object-oriented dialect of COBOL, as a play on the name >> C++. While this is meant to suggest that COBOL is inherently verbose, >> the form given is more verbose than COBOL actually requires. >> >> Alternative expansions of the COBOL acronym have been suggested: >> >> * Compiles Only Because Of Luck >> * Compiles Only By Odd Luck >> * Completely Obsolete Business Oriented Language >> * Completely Over and Beyond reason Or Logic >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Brinkley Harrell >> http://www.fusemeister.com > > Thanks for the COBOL refresher - I thought I'd left it behind me when I > left a Navy supply ship in 1979. > > Al Castanoli > From rct at gherkin.frus.com Wed Dec 6 11:03:50 2006 From: rct at gherkin.frus.com (Bob Tracy) Date: Wed Dec 6 11:04:12 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: <20061206062246.GA6768@subspacefield.org> "from Travis H. at Dec 6, 2006 00:22:46 am" Message-ID: <20061206170350.83BD0DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Travis H. wrote: > Bruce Schneier says that "turning of assertions in production code > is equivalent to unbuckling your seat belts when you finish Driver's > Ed" (paraphrased). I think that's going a bit far. Cute... > But what an assertion _should_ be used for is detecting an internal > inconsistency that the developer thought shouldn't happen. In cases > like that, the program has strayed into a really weird area, and it > would be pointless to hope for it to correct the error, since the > developer thought this state should never be reached. One of the best of such things I personally witnessed was the one-liner on the console of a PDP-11/70: "Shut 'er down, Slim! She's pumpin' mud..." Memory gets fuzzy at this point, but I think the message was buried deep in file system driver code. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Tracy WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org rct@frus.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 12:42:18 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 12:42:27 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] San Antonio's Daily WTF In-Reply-To: <20061206170350.83BD0DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> References: <20061206062246.GA6768@subspacefield.org> <20061206170350.83BD0DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612061042g11f4c537g7ab383a0a6718097@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, Bob Tracy wrote: > Travis H. wrote: > > Bruce Schneier says that "turning of assertions in production code > > is equivalent to unbuckling your seat belts when you finish Driver's > > Ed" (paraphrased). I think that's going a bit far. > > Cute... > I agree with two points here: (a) What Bruce Schneier says (b) This is going a bit far In the unit tests for Plone, there are thousands of assertions made testing what is *approaching* all interactions between various modules, though I think really we have only passed about 50% coverage a few months ago, we are also killing a bunch of untested code in Plone 3.0. I don't want all that code running when people are interacting with the site - we have exception handling to handle problems in real-time, thank you very much. I have, however, considered that I might enacting some automated running of unit tests on the live systems. I may consider in some cases where a write is performed leaving assertions in - there is nothing worse than finding out way too late that your save code is fucked. ;) > > But what an assertion _should_ be used for is detecting an internal > > inconsistency that the developer thought shouldn't happen. In cases > > like that, the program has strayed into a really weird area, and it > > would be pointless to hope for it to correct the error, since the > > developer thought this state should never be reached. > > One of the best of such things I personally witnessed was the one-liner > on the console of a PDP-11/70: > > "Shut 'er down, Slim! She's pumpin' mud..." > > Memory gets fuzzy at this point, but I think the message was buried > deep in file system driver code. > My favorite, from Zope: __you_lose I should write a patch to handle that case better, in fact. It's not too late! -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From bruce.dubbs at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 12:56:20 2006 From: bruce.dubbs at gmail.com (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Wed Dec 6 12:56:25 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <20061206154836.GA3432@spoonix.com> References: <77be04730612050928h33bdb1acm8b8507b0a7e775bb@mail.gmail.com> <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> <45762FC9.5040701@gmail.com> <20061206154836.GA3432@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <45771254.9060900@gmail.com> K. Spoon wrote: > But if I'm on a team where everyone else is churning out 200 lines a day > and the newly minted BS/CS is bragging about how he's doing 500... to > me, that's a warning sign that someone needs to go check his work and > reign him in if need be I tend to agree, but would point out that but the new and the old programmer's code needs to be checked. If after checking the one doing 500 is more productive is doing more work. The QA team's job is not to change code. Its not just testing either. An important job is to see if programming standards are followed. Just look at the Linux kernel--if you don't follow the standards, the patch is rejected. Then the submitter has to redo it. Now it takes another day to fix it. That 500 lines/day is now 250 lines/day. Productivity is not just code output, it is accepted, tested code. >> In your comments above, you automatically assume that the person >> producing more SLOC is producing lower quality code. In many cases, the >> high SLOC producer also produces better quality code. > > If more is better quality, then why did you reduce the SLOC by 50% in > your FORTRAN anecdote? Also, would that program not have been easier to > maintain before then if it had always been 20K lines of code instead of > 40K? That was a rewrite after all code was available and tested. In that situation, you can better take advantage of redundancies. In this case, the code was written in the mid 80s. When I rewrote it, there was this radical new statement (for Fortran) called "include..." :) -- Bruce From twistedpickles at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 14:12:36 2006 From: twistedpickles at gmail.com (twistedpickles) Date: Wed Dec 6 14:12:42 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Computer Show In-Reply-To: <45766EDF.5000405@clamp.ws> References: <4574F72A.80703@gvtc.com> <45766EDF.5000405@clamp.ws> Message-ID: Gracias! -- ::twistedPickles:: : From j at jvpappas.net Wed Dec 6 14:22:03 2006 From: j at jvpappas.net (John Pappas) Date: Wed Dec 6 14:26:02 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: XP/Agile vs. CMMI (was Re: SLOC was Re: PHP Eats Rails...) In-Reply-To: References: <77be04730612051214g5d277635h80707258b6a96a0a@mail.gmail.com> <20061205214218.4AB6ADBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: <1165436523.30429.178.camel@spook.abacussg.com> Wow, lots of programmers on this list as evidenced by the spike in activity. FTR, I am not a programmer, but have, and married one. On Tue, 2006-12-05 at 16:16 -0600, Robert Pearson wrote: > On 12/5/06, Bob Tracy wrote: > > In my past is a project for a government customer where the developers > > used XP/agile programming techniques. At the time, the company was > > making strides toward CMMI level 5 certification, but the developers > > seemed determined to abuse the toolset and techniques in such a way as > > to thwart any notion of design process, let alone intelligence behind > > the design. End result was poorly defined interfaces between the various > > modules, poor-to-nonexistent documentation, and lots of 11th-hour heroics > > as everything got stiched together in time (barely) to make the delivery. > > > > Based on what I observed, if people had actually bothered to design > > something before going off and coding (under the guise of prototyping), > > much of the arse-pain could have been avoided. I'd be intensely > > interested in other success/failure stories involving XP/agile usage, > > because while I'm willing to acknowledge that such techniques can bear > > fruit, our experience was clearly anathema to the company's CMMI > > aspirations. > > Google is a "BIG" Agile success story. > Near as I can tell, from the group that presented to us, Agile is all > Google uses. During the Google presentation there was a lot of hostile > comment from the attendees and several people got up and left. Some > people were using Agile and were coming to like it. They were not > using any where near as aggressive a time line as Google. We're > talking 2 week timelines for Google versus 3 months+ for the locals. The timelines are directly related to client. The Gov't cannot be defined as fast in many contexts, while "COTS" consumers and the general competitive landscape leads to these concepts of time. In "GOTS"-land Time != Money as revenue concepts are reversed to "COTS". In COTS, money is to be made, not simply spent. > Caveat: Google has a definite profile or stereotype in mind for the > people they want for programing positions. They took one look at me > and thanked me for stopping by. Rank age discrimination. Everyone stereotypes as a defense mechanism. There are always exceptions to the rule, but stereotypes exist none the less. > SwRI (Southwest Research Institute) is a big CMMI shop the last time I looked. They are an interesting animal due to fractionation between divisions (I have some spousal insight via Chair of Div 10 CMMI4 Task force). I am not wholly certain if the Div 10 CMMI 4 effort is for SwRI greater, or just Div 10 (I imagine that Greg Willden of Div 16 could speak to their CMMI better than I). They are WAY more conservative than Google, so this is not Apples to Apples, more PC to Mac :) Hence, the Big, Slow, Evil CMMI loses to Small, Cool, Young Agile. Stereotypes aside, the markets that SwRI and Google each attack are as different at their approaches. The Google customers typically expect rapid innovation, while SwRI customers typically do not; and even expect CMMI certification in the contract award selection criteria. Just thought I would contribute to the spike in traffic ;) John From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 14:28:05 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 14:28:09 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Can you provide Awesome GNU/Linux Support? ;) Message-ID: <77be04730612061228h6655e80fl65455a375770aeaa@mail.gmail.com> Howdy all.. I spend a lot of time working as a contractor at a pretty high rate, mostly developing solutions in Python using Zope and Plone. Sometimes it's nice to have reliable income on the side, with a few perks, and recently an associate of mine pointed me at a company he hosts his website with, who was looking for some extra help with generalized linux support - mostly helping people get up and running and fixing simple problems for them. One of the people who was supposed to start around the same time as myself has been a no-show, and we are continually growing and looking for more help. It could be great work for a student or someone else who is a contractor, esp if you are looking for a way to reduce your hosting costs and a provider you can trust. All of us, save two people in Auckland, work from our homes, or wherever we choose, and the schedule is very flexible, which we find isn't a problem with employees in nearly every region of the globe - someone on the team is almost always awake, and if there is work to do, you are free to bill time. We offer a range of USD$8-20 per hour based on experience and pay via PayPal or wire transfer. Employees receive hosting at cost. Paid national holidays are barely necessary, but provided. This isn't a full-time gig, I only put in 10-20 hours per week, but I find it is sometimes a nice break from the norm. Also, this helps to fill my PayPal account with spending money when I am waiting on a larger payment, and it's a great group of folks to work with. Unless there is an emergency, I can generally work when I have energy and time, and all of my team members are patient, understanding, and excited about their job. We desire experience with / knowledge of: * Customer Service * Internetworking * GNU/Linux - you should have a passion for GNU/Linux to work with us. * Xen / User-Mode-Linux * Apache * Tomcat * PHP * MySQL * Postfix/Qmail/dovecot * Plesk * Liferay * Mac / GNU/Linux / Windows networking and client configuration Knowledge of the following may be helpful, but is not required: * Automation systems * Monitoring systems * RAID Interested parties, please contact me directly. Cheers! Justin -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 14:34:32 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 14:34:34 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: XP/Agile vs. CMMI (was Re: SLOC was Re: PHP Eats Rails...) In-Reply-To: <4576217B.1090602@gmail.com> References: <77be04730612051214g5d277635h80707258b6a96a0a@mail.gmail.com> <20061205214218.4AB6ADBA1@gherkin.frus.com> <77be04730612051407l31705764laafb58817755fe1b@mail.gmail.com> <4576217B.1090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612061234o3b0f5fa6mcdc14ed9bb7a1b3d@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: .. snip .. Okay, the Spiral model sounds cool, but over-formalization I am generally against. > > I don't think the ideas you advocate are appropriate for systems where > failures mean that people may die or equipment worth millions may be > destroyed. > That's a misunderstanding. You should not launch a system which can destroy equipment automatically until you are sure it will work, it should be well tested, etc.. Not all 'iterations' in XP are one or two weeks, even - they can be three months and at NASA, they might be implemented in three-year segments, but a great deal of their software is often not in use, I imagine. However, an XP approach would be to have systems *attempt* to take care of problems that otherwise need human attention, and report success or failure. If you don't receive a success report, you still need to give attention. If you are already doing something manually, you should generally continue to do so until you know a software solution that can replace your manual labor is working properly, and you -- the person whose job the software will do -- are the most important party in writing specifications, aka 'user stories' or 'use cases'. XP would probably say that there are smaller problems you can solve more quickly than the ones which people's lives will depend on, and that you will learn more about the bigger problems by solving the small ones. So you have a goal: "Launch software solution that people's lives rely on." This goal has not been reached until: (a) You're pretty dang sure people's lives will not be in bad shape if they rely on this software (b) You've deployed this software (c) You're pretty sure it works and ready to abandon whatever you did before having the new software. You could apply this approach to many problems. Let's say I want to start a company engineering medical devices like heart monitors. I should start small and learn about regulatory processes, the medical industry, maybe even get some doctors on staff to participate in the design process. Hopefully I can find some problems which do not require full understanding of the domain, solve them, and use this success to fund further development. It's very capitalist and bootstrap-y. ;) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 14:47:13 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 14:47:16 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <45771254.9060900@gmail.com> References: <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> <45762FC9.5040701@gmail.com> <20061206154836.GA3432@spoonix.com> <45771254.9060900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612061247j32a2ba03q835396cfdd791dd2@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > K. Spoon wrote: > > > But if I'm on a team where everyone else is churning out 200 lines a day > > and the newly minted BS/CS is bragging about how he's doing 500... to > > me, that's a warning sign that someone needs to go check his work and > > reign him in if need be > > I tend to agree, but would point out that but the new and the old > programmer's code needs to be checked. If after checking the one doing > 500 is more productive is doing more work. Again the type of work is also more important. More productive is a term I hate, although I'm sure I abuse it as much as anyone. Let's say I have one year of experience with a project, and I complete 100 requests per week to change or fix it, outputting, in any given week, between 500 and 2000 lines of code, and one of my compadres has three years of experience on the same project. Perhaps I'm outputting 2000 lines of code because each of 100 requests requires 20 new lines of code, even if 20 of those requests are for something very similar. Although I'm rather productive, I have a problem, so I talk to my cohort: "Dude, it's too much trouble to make this type of change and I have to do it all the time." Maybe he only completes 5-10 requests per week, but if they are requests from junior team members, like myself, they probably carry far more importance. For one week, I might still do 20 repetetive changes to keep the wheels of business moving, but I'm going to crash soon if this doesn't stop, because there are 200 of these changes needing to be done within a month, and that's an order of magnitude more than I am handling now. After the end of this grueling week, my cohort comes to me and says: "Voila! A tool! Now those changes take three lines of code which can be generated from a single line of XML." This is great. I spend two weeks writing 200 lines of XML and process the remaining changes all at once, freeing up time to frolic in the sunlight. A few weeks down the road I may start thinking: "Hm, I wonder if I can build the paramaters of this XML file into the request form people fill out - then I won't have to spend a week writing long XML files, I can just review the requests, approve the paramaters as valid, and push them out. In fact, I can probably write validators for the input, trust it, and allow people to instantaneously generate code for deployment into production." Neither of us was more productive, we worked as a team, separated concerns, and now either: (a) have a lot of free time to talk about improved performance strategies (b) have happy customers who are less afraid that requests they submit won't be handled in time. Beyond that, if this is the first time we've done something like this, we've done the most productive thing of all - we learned how to leverage our combined resources to solve problems more efficiently than either of us could on our own. > The QA team's job is not to change code. Its not just testing either. > An important job is to see if programming standards are followed. Just > look at the Linux kernel--if you don't follow the standards, the patch > is rejected. Then the submitter has to redo it. Now it takes another > day to fix it. That 500 lines/day is now 250 lines/day. > > Productivity is not just code output, it is accepted, tested code. > Depends on what you are doing. Productivity could be accepted, failing tests, a redesign with adequate justification that works enough to talk about, but isn't production ready, etc.. All phases of development are important, and QA is important to all phases. > >> In your comments above, you automatically assume that the person > >> producing more SLOC is producing lower quality code. In many cases, the > >> high SLOC producer also produces better quality code. > > > > If more is better quality, then why did you reduce the SLOC by 50% in > > your FORTRAN anecdote? Also, would that program not have been easier to > > maintain before then if it had always been 20K lines of code instead of > > 40K? > > That was a rewrite after all code was available and tested. In that > situation, you can better take advantage of redundancies. In this case, > the code was written in the mid 80s. When I rewrote it, there was this > radical new statement (for Fortran) called "include..." :) > woop, reminds me of when PHP got properties. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 14:49:27 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 14:49:35 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] [Fwd: San Antonio Open Source Research] In-Reply-To: <456F3C51.3010302@gmail.com> References: <45631C11.8010805@gmail.com> <77be04730611210749x74b51459v415602866c5600aa@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730611290655s27958e8fva43ed966874494e1@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730611300840k6bb1bd01ne5b8f560a63fb4c5@mail.gmail.com> <456F3C51.3010302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612061249q78fce9d9mc174832fdd7fe74b@mail.gmail.com> On 11/30/06, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > Justizin wrote: > > I hate working for people, and I am not in San Antonio, I am just a > > ten-plus year member of SATLUG. I'd rather talk to you guys than > > SVLUG, BALUG, or any of the other various groups that somehow are > > better located but less active. > > Really? I thought SATLUG was formed in 1998. Its hard to be a > "ten-plus year member" of an organization that is 8-9 years old. > > Note that broadband was only widely available starting in 1999. Before > that, there was no mailing list or web site. > Good point, ten-ish is a better term. I remember the original alamo.satlug.org, for sure, and my first job ever was to interface with groups like SATLUG. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From pixelnate at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 14:48:13 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (pixelnate) Date: Wed Dec 6 14:50:24 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <77be04730612061247j32a2ba03q835396cfdd791dd2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4575B039.4040102@gmail.com> <77be04730612050952n14ebbeb8y962209906de71b54@mail.gmail.com> <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> <45762FC9.5040701@gmail.com> <20061206154836.GA3432@spoonix.com> <45771254.9060900@gmail.com> <77be04730612061247j32a2ba03q835396cfdd791dd2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45772C8D.5000109@gmail.com> Justizin wrote: > > Again the type of work is also more important. More productive is a > term I hate, although I'm sure I abuse it as much as anyone. > But if you were writing it in Ruby you would be having more fun while being more productive. ;^) I couldn't resist. ~Nate From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 14:50:43 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 14:50:49 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] [Fwd: San Antonio Open Source Research] In-Reply-To: <4576A512.6030903@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <45631C11.8010805@gmail.com> <77be04730611210749x74b51459v415602866c5600aa@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730611290655s27958e8fva43ed966874494e1@mail.gmail.com> <345e55a50611291053j4ec3061cmc50db84ad4ae0c0@mail.gmail.com> <20061206105042.GC6342@subspacefield.org> <4576A512.6030903@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: <77be04730612061250r7168bca8l6bb7eb9c1c6a7845@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, Geoff wrote: > Travis H. wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 12:53:20PM -0600, Greg Willden wrote: > > > >> I work for SwRI and we use a lot of Linux. All of our major systems > >> in the Signal Exploitation and Geolocation Division > >> > > > > Coolest. Division. Name. Ever. :-) > > > > Not as cool as D-17 - Non-destructiveTesting. > I once employed a "Penetration Tester" who wrote security courses for TurboLinux. Beat that. ;) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 15:08:16 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:08:18 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] How to build source packages in Debian Message-ID: <20061206210816.GA28880@subspacefield.org> Hey all, quick question: What is the method for getting and building source packages in Debian? Especially kernel. I got it but it I don't know exactly how to build. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 15:12:57 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:13:00 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <45772C8D.5000109@gmail.com> References: <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> <45762FC9.5040701@gmail.com> <20061206154836.GA3432@spoonix.com> <45771254.9060900@gmail.com> <77be04730612061247j32a2ba03q835396cfdd791dd2@mail.gmail.com> <45772C8D.5000109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612061312i3b15a0e3v3ad0769049c5c3c4@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, pixelnate wrote: > Justizin wrote: > > > > Again the type of work is also more important. More productive is a > > term I hate, although I'm sure I abuse it as much as anyone. > > > But if you were writing it in Ruby you would be having more fun while > being more productive. ;^) > :-P The gartner group published some interesting words this year on the topic of programmer productivity, saying that a catalog of components would be more crucial to most business' success than pure programmer productivity. They went on some tirades I'm not entirely in agreeance with, but I can see what they are saying. One unproductive craftsman with great tools and materials might do better than ten great craftsman building hammers out of old furniture. ;) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 15:16:13 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:16:15 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <77be04730612061315g36c95435t1b1d8f0b667c8da9@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730612061309y5db5aa5bie1f60fc4316fd631@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612061315g36c95435t1b1d8f0b667c8da9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612061316p61c47781l25bf2b0fc8f3689d@mail.gmail.com> Whups, should have sent a url vs. attachment. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Justizin Date: Dec 6, 2006 3:09 PM Subject: desktop screenshots To: The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing List Okay.. So, I am admittedly a Mac convert - for my laptop only, of course - after many years of using nothing but GNU/Linux, everywhere. As a graphics enthusiast and designer, there are a lot of tools - many Free or free, many that come with the OS - which are pretty handy, and the windowing system is far superior to anything I've ever used on GNU/Linux. That said, I have been tracking a lot of work to do Mac-y things like Display PS/PDF, 3d/GL transitions and window animations, etc.. under X11, and I have even seen some interesting recent work in relation to GNUStep. I wonder if anyone on the list has anything really cool they could show off in a screenshot or two. Attached is a screenshot of my mac. One of the things I find most missing from Free Desktop implementations is true translucency of windows, which is a feature that really helps me to live in one 15" screen versus three 17" screens. I know there are expose-type tools, dashboard compatibility in KDE thanks at least in part to WebKit, and Etoile is an OSX-compatible menubar, but I don't see gaim doing things like adium does, or gkrellm doing things like iPulse, lower right. I'd love to see all of that, though. Whatcha got? Can I switch back yet? ;) http://jryan.gerf.org/translucence.png -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From pixelnate at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 15:15:01 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (pixelnate) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:17:05 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <77be04730612061312i3b15a0e3v3ad0769049c5c3c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4575B63E.5030707@gmail.com> <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> <45762FC9.5040701@gmail.com> <20061206154836.GA3432@spoonix.com> <45771254.9060900@gmail.com> <77be04730612061247j32a2ba03q835396cfdd791dd2@mail.gmail.com> <45772C8D.5000109@gmail.com> <77be04730612061312i3b15a0e3v3ad0769049c5c3c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <457732D5.9090501@gmail.com> Justizin wrote: > > One unproductive craftsman with great tools and materials might do > better than ten great craftsman building hammers out of old furniture. As an "unproductive craftsman" I can vouch for that statement. ;^) From dkowis at shlrm.org Wed Dec 6 15:31:14 2006 From: dkowis at shlrm.org (David Kowis) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:28:59 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <77be04730612061316p61c47781l25bf2b0fc8f3689d@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730612061309y5db5aa5bie1f60fc4316fd631@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612061315g36c95435t1b1d8f0b667c8da9@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612061316p61c47781l25bf2b0fc8f3689d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <457736A2.3060603@shlrm.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Justizin wrote: > Whups, should have sent a url vs. attachment. > I'd love to see all of that, though. Whatcha got? Can I switch back > yet? ;) > > http://jryan.gerf.org/translucence.png > Yep. Beryl. http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=beryl&w=73292596%40N00 A few screenshots from when I had beryl running in kde on my dual flat panels. That's a 3200x1200 display. I had all the jiggly windows and transparencies. The cube based desktop was really nice. It's not quite as stable as osx, but it's Free :) I've been able to use it for quite a while until something started causing my desktop to hoze. I suspect it's not related to beryl as it happens even without beryl :( David -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iQGVAwUBRXc2osnf+vRw63ObAQpWxQv+K52nEeR7mNvLkHZIlVaZMV8WKj/piVWN k3ZrcCKtx4A7o6kCCFa7S0AJOt4EgOm78mZ7BsrYijxw87ecVBCU8DFVVrZmnNJJ 4m6AXCilJr9YM9dpXP48JXwyEhuuXHLZeL9kSTMxueUX6FO4QZFDCZGlrKMS5Lw8 Ov744f3u8RnA5eBxmOduzPA7WqwsORO0TFiFn2sQ8NXU+xVK5+13rnofIIDy6cAl J8PK54NmO1Sfb4Sjp49csKULzw45GpsGKcytsJewhTBlYoi2yKr8dTFcukuOTBn4 z7TtXITGNAoXvXCdUnS0W8tN2l4N7DISOP2bt9mxOKsJMpzFULecx3DDYqI6665/ 3z/HqDTn5+arhdmDTUu80gjvgJ8cUtAz+CoOzmJ+8KhvMOZfgxHof9kYhWn6jd+Y FpPqmZYK8rj7QlESGXaQrz9b2baB9WVAtT7sEBOZcoeDFU4pVU04xfEa1DVnBlzD kWfNIFaVrnXiw30OkbFCCjyx0j0x+hqn =8S7W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com Wed Dec 6 15:31:45 2006 From: bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com (Alex Bartonek) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:31:47 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <77be04730612061316p61c47781l25bf2b0fc8f3689d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <821829.90226.qm@web55612.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I'm not much into transparency.. makes it hard to read stuff. I dont run anything like ipulse because I dont care whats going on in the background unless something froze up... if it does I'll just 'ps' it or use kpm. For the most part gkrellm does the job I need it to do. Running 10 different clocks to see what time it is here and in Zimbabwe or what kind of weather Paco is going to experience this minute doesnt do anything for me. Its just stuff that clogs up the screen when I'm coding or reading stuff on the web. YMMV, carry on citizen. Alex --- Justizin wrote: > Whups, should have sent a url vs. attachment. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Justizin > Date: Dec 6, 2006 3:09 PM > Subject: desktop screenshots > To: The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing List > > > > Okay.. > > So, I am admittedly a Mac convert - for my laptop > only, of course - > after many years of using nothing but GNU/Linux, > everywhere. As a > graphics enthusiast and designer, there are a lot of > tools - many Free > or free, many that come with the OS - which are > pretty handy, and the > windowing system is far superior to anything I've > ever used on > GNU/Linux. > > That said, I have been tracking a lot of work to do > Mac-y things like > Display PS/PDF, 3d/GL transitions and window > animations, etc.. under > X11, and I have even seen some interesting recent > work in relation to > GNUStep. > > I wonder if anyone on the list has anything really > cool they could > show off in a screenshot or two. Attached is a > screenshot of my mac. > One of the things I find most missing from Free > Desktop > implementations is true translucency of windows, > which is a feature > that really helps me to live in one 15" screen > versus three 17" > screens. I know there are expose-type tools, > dashboard compatibility > in KDE thanks at least in part to WebKit, and Etoile > is an > OSX-compatible menubar, but I don't see gaim doing > things like adium > does, or gkrellm doing things like iPulse, lower > right. > > I'd love to see all of that, though. Whatcha got? > Can I switch back yet? ;) > > http://jryan.gerf.org/translucence.png > > -- > Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect > ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter > http://www.siggraph.org/ > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to > unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 15:31:58 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:32:08 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <457736A2.3060603@shlrm.org> References: <77be04730612061309y5db5aa5bie1f60fc4316fd631@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612061315g36c95435t1b1d8f0b667c8da9@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612061316p61c47781l25bf2b0fc8f3689d@mail.gmail.com> <457736A2.3060603@shlrm.org> Message-ID: <77be04730612061331pbd201f8u82bab7d938c06867@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, David Kowis wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > Justizin wrote: > > Whups, should have sent a url vs. attachment. > > > I'd love to see all of that, though. Whatcha got? Can I switch back > > yet? ;) > > > > http://jryan.gerf.org/translucence.png > > > > Yep. Beryl. > > http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=beryl&w=73292596%40N00 > > A few screenshots from when I had beryl running in kde on my dual flat > panels. That's a 3200x1200 display. I had all the jiggly windows and > transparencies. The cube based desktop was really nice. It's not quite > as stable as osx, but it's Free :) I've been able to use it for quite a > while until something started causing my desktop to hoze. I suspect it's > not related to beryl as it happens even without beryl :( > OSX has its' problems - it is very stable, but it frustrates me not to have access to the internals. I think that's going to change in time. Most of the apps I use are GPL, I think even if they shared their source code, that Apple could shrinkwrap a better laptop than anyone else, but they are afraid. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 15:37:09 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:37:11 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <821829.90226.qm@web55612.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <77be04730612061316p61c47781l25bf2b0fc8f3689d@mail.gmail.com> <821829.90226.qm@web55612.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612061337l6f5028f4q1a8603a3853144a7@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, Alex Bartonek wrote: > I'm not much into transparency.. makes it hard to read Transparency and translucency are different causes. With a 1400x600 transparent terminal, it's much easier to type based on instructions from a web page or an e-mail, or to transcribe passwords. It's taken me some tweaking of the opacity of my terminal to get to where the background text behind doesn't cause too much interference with foreground text, and is also legible when I need it to be. Generally, when I want to read what's in the background, I 'clear' or 'reset' my terminal. > stuff. I dont run anything like ipulse because I dont > care whats going on in the background unless something > froze up... if it does I'll just 'ps' it or use kpm. I recall when I used to say things like that. I can see in one glance, however, the temperature of my CPU and the top 10-15 processes, same for memory usage, etc, and it's all visual - I've learned to interpret the intensity of color as an indication of full-ness or used-up-ness, and if I have something going on in the background sucking a lot of resources, spinning my cpu, and heating things up, it's apparent because not only do I hear the fan - which happens sometimes under normal conditions anyway, but I see that the dark black dot at the middle has become a large, intense black circle. > For the most part gkrellm does the job I need it to > do. Running 10 different clocks to see what time it > is here and in Zimbabwe or what kind of weather Paco > is going to experience this minute doesnt do anything > for me. Its just stuff that clogs up the screen when > I'm coding or reading stuff on the web. Those clocks only float in when I hit f12, and when your clients are all in different timezones, it's important not to instant message them about work when they are up at 4am watching porn, frankly. ;) I actually find that gkrellm clogs the screen. It's not peripheral enough for me. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From pixelnate at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 15:57:31 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (pixelnate) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:59:35 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <821829.90226.qm@web55612.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <821829.90226.qm@web55612.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45773CCB.7020706@gmail.com> Alex Bartonek wrote: > I'm not much into transparency.. makes it hard to read > stuff. I dont run anything like ipulse because I dont > care whats going on in the background unless something > froze up... if it does I'll just 'ps' it or use kpm. > For the most part gkrellm does the job I need it to > do. Running 10 different clocks to see what time it > is here and in Zimbabwe or what kind of weather Paco > is going to experience this minute doesnt do anything > for me. Its just stuff that clogs up the screen when > I'm coding or reading stuff on the web. > > YMMV, carry on citizen. > This is a perfect example of the difference between Mac people and linux people. Maybe Justizin does business with people on 4 different clients and is running some beta software that does weird things when he presses button-X and he needs to see the correlation. This is not a personal attack, Alex, just an observation that matches many other similar observations. But (you knew this was coming) whether or not you feel the need to run these kinds of apps, Justizin does, and while he is running OSX he would like to switch back to linux and would like to know how to achieve similar functionality. Instead of helping him, you basically told him that what he uses on his machine, and the way he works, is totally bullocks and that he should do things just like you do things. You have not provided any help for his problem, but yet you felt compelled to deride him about the number of clocks he had on Dashboard. People in the linux and FOSS world talk so much about choice and freedom to use your computer as you see fit, but the moment you start talking about something that isn't currently available in linux they always have something flippant to say about how they don't need feature-X because it is totally unnecessary or it "clogs up the screen". I know the tone here is a little strong, especially after so many people did so much to help me find good docs about Subversion (which came in very handy, btw), it just bothers me when people who talk about choice as a sort of mantra criticize somebody for making use of a tool they find useful simply because they think it is unnecessary. I get the same response when I talk about the differences between the Gimp and Photoshop to Gimp people. Just because the developers of Gimp don't think adjustment layers are "necessary" they refuse to hear justification for them. Adjustment layers are necessary for me, because that is how I work. For Gimp to replace Photoshop for me, one of the tools that must be implemented is an adjustment layer feature. For Justizin, he needs/uses the dashboard widgets he uses because he needs/wants them. Now to the matter at hand, is there a way to replicate what he has on his dashboard in linux? ~Nate From bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com Wed Dec 6 16:14:12 2006 From: bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com (Alex Bartonek) Date: Wed Dec 6 16:14:15 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <45773CCB.7020706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- pixelnate wrote: > Alex Bartonek wrote: > > I'm not much into transparency.. makes it hard to > read > > stuff. I dont run anything like ipulse because I > dont > > care whats going on in the background unless > something > > froze up... if it does I'll just 'ps' it or use > kpm. > > For the most part gkrellm does the job I need it > to > > do. Running 10 different clocks to see what time > it > > is here and in Zimbabwe or what kind of weather > Paco > > is going to experience this minute doesnt do > anything > > for me. Its just stuff that clogs up the screen > when > > I'm coding or reading stuff on the web. > > > > YMMV, carry on citizen. > > > > This is a perfect example of the difference between > Mac people and linux > people. Maybe Justizin does business with people on > 4 different clients > and is running some beta software that does weird > things when he presses > button-X and he needs to see the correlation. *snip snip snip* After reading his reply to my email I figured out he was using this for business which is why he has all the clocks etc. That makes more sense.. I know its not a personal attack, no offense taken. My clock comment was funny...the whole paco thing..etc..I was going to throw in a Egyptian name but I didnt know any common names from someone that lives in Egypt. That would have been funny also. > People in the linux and FOSS world talk so much > about choice and freedom > to use your computer as you see fit, but the moment > you start talking > about something that isn't currently available in > linux they always have > something flippant to say about how they don't need > feature-X because it > is totally unnecessary or it "clogs up the screen". To me it would just 'clog up the screen' so I never bothered looking into it. Dont read between the lines, its not a slam by me on Justin..if it was I could have worded it better :) > Now to the matter at hand, is there a way to > replicate what he has on > his dashboard in linux? dunno..I dont use alot of eye candy on my desktop unless its pics of women. -Alex ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From pixelnate at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 16:18:04 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (pixelnate) Date: Wed Dec 6 16:20:07 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4577419C.4030101@gmail.com> Alex Bartonek wrote: > My clock comment was funny...the whole paco > thing..etc..I was going to throw in a Egyptian name > but I didnt know any common names from someone that > lives in Egypt. That would have been funny also. > > > But who does know the most common names of men in Egypt? Maybe Achmed (sp?) would have worked? It's a predominantly Muslim country... Oh who cares, it was pretty funny. And my dog's name is Paco. I don't know why he would be in Egypt, but I digress. >> People in the linux and FOSS world talk so much >> about choice and freedom >> to use your computer as you see fit, but the moment >> you start talking >> about something that isn't currently available in >> linux they always have >> something flippant to say about how they don't need >> feature-X because it >> is totally unnecessary or it "clogs up the screen". >> > > To me it would just 'clog up the screen' so I never > bothered looking into it. Dont read between the > lines, its not a slam by me on Justin..if it was I > could have worded it better :) > > > Noted. >> Now to the matter at hand, is there a way to >> replicate what he has on >> his dashboard in linux? >> > > dunno..I dont use alot of eye candy on my desktop > unless its pics of women. > Now that is something we can both agree on. ~Nate From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 16:23:29 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 16:23:30 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <4577419C.4030101@gmail.com> References: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4577419C.4030101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612061423r3bbe8d01r572bb11acf315a89@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, pixelnate wrote: > > > > dunno..I dont use alot of eye candy on my desktop > > unless its pics of women. > > > > Now that is something we can both agree on. > As an HCI designer, I find the term 'eye candy' interesting. Screensavers are eye candy, but translucency, when it's functional, is not. Like I said, if I can read a web page through my terminal, that means one monitor does the job of two. I used to have three monitors, and now I accomplish more with something I can carry in a backpack. I just want to use the same sort of tools, but be able to install GNU/Linux on this machine. For one, the Linux kernel is faster at many things, though I have learned to enjoy the feel of a microkernel - it's sort of like a wenkel. ;) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From pixelnate at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 16:32:24 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (pixelnate) Date: Wed Dec 6 16:34:29 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <77be04730612061423r3bbe8d01r572bb11acf315a89@mail.gmail.com> References: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4577419C.4030101@gmail.com> <77be04730612061423r3bbe8d01r572bb11acf315a89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <457744F8.8050906@gmail.com> Justizin wrote: > > As an HCI designer, I find the term 'eye candy' interesting. > Screensavers are eye candy, but translucency, when it's functional, is > not. Like I said, if I can read a web page through my terminal, that > means one monitor does the job of two. I used to have three monitors, > and now I accomplish more with something I can carry in a backpack. > I couldn't agree more. > I just want to use the same sort of tools, but be able to install > GNU/Linux on this machine. For one, the Linux kernel is faster at > many things, though I have learned to enjoy the feel of a microkernel I also love the OSX, but linux feels so much snappier to me. For me to make the switch permanent (OSX->linux) I would need a file system browser like OSX's columns view. Even KDE's one-click icons don't provide as transparent [sic] an experience as the OSX finder in columns view. So it's my turn to ask: is there anything like that in the myriad GUIs on linux? > - it's sort of like a wenkel. ;) An RX-7/8 fan, eh? I knew you were alright. ~Nate From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 16:34:45 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 16:34:50 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] gdm/kdm resolution off Message-ID: <20061206223445.GB28880@subspacefield.org> Hey, I was fooling with the display settings in kubuntu and now my kdm login screen is the wrong resolution, but everything else is right. Anyone know how to fix it? -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From pixelnate at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 16:36:41 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (pixelnate) Date: Wed Dec 6 16:38:48 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] gdm/kdm resolution off In-Reply-To: <20061206223445.GB28880@subspacefield.org> References: <20061206223445.GB28880@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <457745F9.1040805@gmail.com> Travis H. wrote: > Hey, I was fooling with the display settings in kubuntu and now > my kdm login screen is the wrong resolution, but everything else > is right. Anyone know how to fix it? > I think you need to find the vga code for the resolution you want it at and change it in you grub.conf file. It has been awhile, but I think it's right. Finding the right code is the hardest part. ~Nate From jeremymann at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 16:54:10 2006 From: jeremymann at gmail.com (Jeremy Mann) Date: Wed Dec 6 16:54:13 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <457744F8.8050906@gmail.com> References: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4577419C.4030101@gmail.com> <77be04730612061423r3bbe8d01r572bb11acf315a89@mail.gmail.com> <457744F8.8050906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <79ec289f0612061454j5fca2a79t34fe3c99084abbb6@mail.gmail.com> Nate, to me PPC Linux feels at least twice as fast as native OS X. I find it easier to run OS X with MOL when I need the OS X platform. Check it out... Slackintosh 11.0 KDE 3.5 with transparency: http://mann.uthscsa.edu/images/screenshots On 12/6/06, pixelnate wrote: > Justizin wrote: > > > > As an HCI designer, I find the term 'eye candy' interesting. > > Screensavers are eye candy, but translucency, when it's functional, is > > not. Like I said, if I can read a web page through my terminal, that > > means one monitor does the job of two. I used to have three monitors, > > and now I accomplish more with something I can carry in a backpack. > > > I couldn't agree more. > > I just want to use the same sort of tools, but be able to install > > GNU/Linux on this machine. For one, the Linux kernel is faster at > > many things, though I have learned to enjoy the feel of a microkernel > I also love the OSX, but linux feels so much snappier to me. For me to > make the switch permanent (OSX->linux) I would need a file system > browser like OSX's columns view. Even KDE's one-click icons don't > provide as transparent [sic] an experience as the OSX finder in columns > view. So it's my turn to ask: is there anything like that in the myriad > GUIs on linux? > > - it's sort of like a wenkel. ;) > An RX-7/8 fan, eh? I knew you were alright. > > > ~Nate > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > -- Jeremy From pixelnate at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 17:03:39 2006 From: pixelnate at gmail.com (pixelnate) Date: Wed Dec 6 17:05:47 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <79ec289f0612061454j5fca2a79t34fe3c99084abbb6@mail.gmail.com> References: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4577419C.4030101@gmail.com> <77be04730612061423r3bbe8d01r572bb11acf315a89@mail.gmail.com> <457744F8.8050906@gmail.com> <79ec289f0612061454j5fca2a79t34fe3c99084abbb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45774C4B.5070600@gmail.com> Jeremy Mann wrote: > Nate, to me PPC Linux feels at least twice as fast as native OS X. I > find it easier to run OS X with MOL when I need the OS X platform. > Check it out... Slackintosh 11.0 KDE 3.5 with transparency: > > http://mann.uthscsa.edu/images/screenshots That is pretty sweet. ~Nate From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 17:12:38 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 17:12:45 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <457744F8.8050906@gmail.com> References: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4577419C.4030101@gmail.com> <77be04730612061423r3bbe8d01r572bb11acf315a89@mail.gmail.com> <457744F8.8050906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612061512h5fa542w272c14fe981de233@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, pixelnate wrote: > Justizin wrote: > > > > As an HCI designer, I find the term 'eye candy' interesting. > > Screensavers are eye candy, but translucency, when it's functional, is > > not. Like I said, if I can read a web page through my terminal, that > > means one monitor does the job of two. I used to have three monitors, > > and now I accomplish more with something I can carry in a backpack. > > > I couldn't agree more. Here is a more relevant and less show-y screenshot: http://jryan.gerf.org/clear-terminal.png The first one shows up to four or five layers of transparency in some areas of the screen, which may be a bit of eye candy. I like the illusion that my windows exist in 3d space, cast shadows on each other, etc.. Somehow it makes me think better, and when I close a window, I can really "feel" whatever I was doing disappear from my head. Also, truthfully, sometimes when I am really swamped, as I swap around windows, a couple words of text will bleed through a window and remind me that I left something unfinished earlier in the day. It's hard to describe this in a more detailed way that 'periphery'. I'm ready for an 85% opacity web browser, myself, and truthfully that's approximately what dashboard is.. This shot will show you something I was doing just before writing an earlier message, which is using my terminal to log into a few remote machines which were just set up for me. I shrank the browser a bunch to protect my passwords, normally it would be maximized.. > > I just want to use the same sort of tools, but be able to install > > GNU/Linux on this machine. For one, the Linux kernel is faster at > > many things, though I have learned to enjoy the feel of a microkernel > I also love the OSX, but linux feels so much snappier to me. For me to > make the switch permanent (OSX->linux) I would need a file system > browser like OSX's columns view. Even KDE's one-click icons don't > provide as transparent [sic] an experience as the OSX finder in columns > view. So it's my turn to ask: is there anything like that in the myriad > GUIs on linux? There is something in GNUStep which is finder-y, this stuff needs a lot of polish but it's in the right direction.. BTW, keep in mind that on OSX, and probably also on GNU/Mach or any other microkernel, you really can peg two cpu cores with a single application thread. It's a beautiful thing and the ol' preempt patches which fell into linux 2.4 or 2.6 are no competition. I would really like to have a Free *NIX Desktop with DisplayPDF under the hood, a mac-style menu bar up top which "regular" applications could comply with somehow, and a choice at boot between a micro and mono kernel. > > - it's sort of like a wenkel. ;) > An RX-7/8 fan, eh? I knew you were alright. > I *almost* got an 80s RX-7 for my first car.. I figured, hey, I don't know how to work on "normal" engines, who the hell cares? Since then, I've spent enough money on bunk mechanics that I sort of wish I had a car which forced me to find one who knows what they are doing. IIRC, there is a prevalent RX-7 club in SA. Getting back on-topic, he real reason that I'm continually interested in this is that I think I will try to raise some funds at some point. This could be the sort of thing that ACM SIGGRAPH may approve a project grant for. There are a *ton* of Free Software zealots in the graphics community who sheepishly give their presentations from a Mac, hoping noone will throw tomatoes at them. Since a friend of mine helped to design some of the NeXT's display system and knows a bit about the ongoing project after being swallowed by Apple, I'm beginning to feel as if this entire effort really just needs a jumpstart. NeXT is something I used to hear a lot more about in the early days of GNU/Linux and truthfully, even with all of the NeXT clone-y stuff, I'm not sure any GNU/Linux system has been as cool, in comparison to the competition of the day, as NeXT was. Truth is, NeXT became OSX and modern Apple, but also shaped a lot of the Free Software movement. People in the know saw the changes that GNU/Linux has been credited for coming when the NeXT showed up, and I think this dovetailing of communities and goals will eventually result in either or both of: * More of OSX being open because developers will demand it * Free Desktops being closer to OSX in capability Anyone looking for something to tinker on the weekends? A recent firmware update seems to have solved an issue I was having getting Boot Camp, Apple's BIOS emulation and multiboot software, to work, so I think I will partition out some room for an ubuntu playground soon. I played with kubuntu for a while, and I think it's a good sign that KDE is following some of the simple patterns from OSX, esp "System Preferences", but I had to reinstall twice after changing display settings, and that's exactly why I use a Mac. I have a friend who works at Apple and I will yell at him if my Mac breaks. I have never yelled at him. Even with Linux-focused notebook vendors, I would not expect the same level of general quality and support. As easy as it is to be a GNU/Linux distributor these days, I'm surprised no vendors have decided to take an Apple-y approach and own their entire product, hardware and OS. Apple manages to continue maintaining a great deal of control of their product even with probably over 50% F/OSS. I wonder how much different things would be at 75%, 90%, etc.. I hate to admit it, but they are CYA-ing pretty well wrt making sure they don't become so friendly they lose their edge, and as one of their happy customers, I'm at least glad this strategy is working. If Apple went out of business, I'd be an unhappy customer, but I'd like for them to relocate the boundary of free-ness now and again. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From kell at spoonix.com Wed Dec 6 17:20:11 2006 From: kell at spoonix.com (K. Spoon) Date: Wed Dec 6 17:20:20 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] How to build source packages in Debian In-Reply-To: <20061206210816.GA28880@subspacefield.org> References: <20061206210816.GA28880@subspacefield.org> Message-ID: <20061206232011.GA5895@spoonix.com> On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 03:08:16PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > Hey all, quick question: > > What is the method for getting and building source packages in Debian? > > Especially kernel. I got it but it I don't know exactly how to build. The kernel is a special case... check out see make-kpkg and http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/system/kernel-pkg.html Otherwise, debs don't really have a "source package". They use a patch to the pristine source tree that adds in a debian/ directory which contains all the packaging info and build rules. If you're trying to build something that already has this, you should be able to simply use dh_builddeb If you need to create the debian/ control directory from scratch, see chapters 4-6 at http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ -- K. Spoon From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 17:41:39 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 17:41:42 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <45774C4B.5070600@gmail.com> References: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4577419C.4030101@gmail.com> <77be04730612061423r3bbe8d01r572bb11acf315a89@mail.gmail.com> <457744F8.8050906@gmail.com> <79ec289f0612061454j5fca2a79t34fe3c99084abbb6@mail.gmail.com> <45774C4B.5070600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612061541k2a038a60pca5673b6c0760fc6@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, pixelnate wrote: > Jeremy Mann wrote: > > Nate, to me PPC Linux feels at least twice as fast as native OS X. I Oh, right, you aren't talking about a core duo or a dual g5, i imagine, which actually benefit from the microkernel at times, rather than simply paying for overhead. I wonder if the only-recent popular uptake of multiprocessing systems has something to do with the success of monokernel design. Most people I talk to about threading even sort of shrug at it. It's easier to overload a box with a bunch of separate services and let them balance than to be able to actually run a single app across several CPUs, right, and why change things? ;) > > find it easier to run OS X with MOL when I need the OS X platform. > > Check it out... Slackintosh 11.0 KDE 3.5 with transparency: > > > > http://mann.uthscsa.edu/images/screenshots > > That is pretty sweet. > Does KDE use dashboard widgets floating over the desktop, or am I unclear on something here? In OSX, you hit F12 and an overlay dims your entire screen. This is where widgets live, though I do think it would be cool to use the same HTML/WebKit functionality to develop small applications. I wouldn't want to give up any permanent real estate to weather or foreign clocks. It's one of those things where I see someone on aim, click their name, start typing, and then think, hmmm, hit f12, and decide if it's daylight where they are. ;) -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From afcasta at texas.net Wed Dec 6 17:56:23 2006 From: afcasta at texas.net (Al Castanoli) Date: Wed Dec 6 17:53:54 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] [Fwd: San Antonio Open Source Research] In-Reply-To: <77be04730612061250r7168bca8l6bb7eb9c1c6a7845@mail.gmail.com> References: <45631C11.8010805@gmail.com> <77be04730611210749x74b51459v415602866c5600aa@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730611290655s27958e8fva43ed966874494e1@mail.gmail.com> <345e55a50611291053j4ec3061cmc50db84ad4ae0c0@mail.gmail.com> <20061206105042.GC6342@subspacefield.org> <4576A512.6030903@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <77be04730612061250r7168bca8l6bb7eb9c1c6a7845@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1165449383.7309.4.camel@linux> On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 14:50 -0600, Justizin wrote: > On 12/6/06, Geoff wrote: > > Travis H. wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 12:53:20PM -0600, Greg Willden wrote: > > >> I work for SwRI and we use a lot of Linux. All of our major systems > > >> in the Signal Exploitation and Geolocation Division > > > Coolest. Division. Name. Ever. :-) > > Not as cool as D-17 - Non-destructiveTesting. > I once employed a "Penetration Tester" who wrote security courses for > TurboLinux. > Beat that. ;) Not to enter any DSW, but I was a penetration tester, and migrated our engineers off RDI SunOS laptops to Slackware laptops. This was at the same time we were building the original alamo.satlug.org, which ran for over a year with a Pentium 100 on 48 MB of RAM. The original SATLUG president recruited me for the gig. -- Al Castanoli From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Wed Dec 6 18:20:54 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Wed Dec 6 18:21:09 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] [Fwd: San Antonio Open Source Research] In-Reply-To: <77be04730612061250r7168bca8l6bb7eb9c1c6a7845@mail.gmail.com> References: <45631C11.8010805@gmail.com> <77be04730611210749x74b51459v415602866c5600aa@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730611290655s27958e8fva43ed966874494e1@mail.gmail.com> <345e55a50611291053j4ec3061cmc50db84ad4ae0c0@mail.gmail.com> <20061206105042.GC6342@subspacefield.org> <4576A512.6030903@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <77be04730612061250r7168bca8l6bb7eb9c1c6a7845@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45775E66.2020004@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Justizin wrote: >> >> > > I once employed a "Penetration Tester" who wrote security courses for > TurboLinux. > > Beat that. ;) > Firewalls are not the first thing that comes to mind, when penetration is spoken of (*muffled snicker*) -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? From geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu Wed Dec 6 18:33:02 2006 From: geoff at w5omr.shacknet.nu (Geoff) Date: Wed Dec 6 18:33:17 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4577613E.3080502@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Alex Bartonek wrote: >> Now to the matter at hand, is there a way to >> replicate what he has on >> his dashboard in linux? >> > > dunno..I dont use alot of eye candy on my desktop > unless its pics of women. > Attaboy! ;-) Nate.. you really -should- lighten up a bit... From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 18:49:07 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 18:49:15 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <4577613E.3080502@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <721096.10183.qm@web55613.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4577613E.3080502@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: <77be04730612061649v5b39cd86q8de850e5d6439d6e@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, Geoff wrote: > Alex Bartonek wrote: > >> Now to the matter at hand, is there a way to > >> replicate what he has on > >> his dashboard in linux? > >> > > > > dunno..I dont use alot of eye candy on my desktop > > unless its pics of women. > > > > Attaboy! > My mind was wandering a while ago and it occurred to me that this is a *great* practical use for a translucent terminal. Okay, so, I want to read hostnames, usernames, and passwords from time to time, or instructions, commands to type. If I close my web browser and open my terminal, I could certainly have a picture of like, nine naked women in the form of a "YMCA" logo visible behind whatever mundane code I am reading.. :-P P.S. - I'm not actually sure if nine women could make the form of YMCA, or if it would take that many, I decided it was worth estimating for conversational purposes.. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From afcasta at texas.net Wed Dec 6 18:52:57 2006 From: afcasta at texas.net (Al Castanoli) Date: Wed Dec 6 18:50:28 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <77be04730612061316p61c47781l25bf2b0fc8f3689d@mail.gmail.com> References: <77be04730612061309y5db5aa5bie1f60fc4316fd631@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612061315g36c95435t1b1d8f0b667c8da9@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612061316p61c47781l25bf2b0fc8f3689d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1165452777.7309.7.camel@linux> On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 15:16 -0600, Justizin wrote: > [...] > Whatcha got? Can I switch back yet? ;) > > http://jryan.gerf.org/translucence.png A mouse is a device for selecting xterms scattered about the desktop, so as to get real work done from the command line. About all a GUI is good for other than that is to waste time. http://www.xs4all.nl/~jvdkuyp/flash/see.htm Al Castanoli From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 19:04:18 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 19:04:23 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] desktop screenshots In-Reply-To: <1165452777.7309.7.camel@linux> References: <77be04730612061309y5db5aa5bie1f60fc4316fd631@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612061315g36c95435t1b1d8f0b667c8da9@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730612061316p61c47781l25bf2b0fc8f3689d@mail.gmail.com> <1165452777.7309.7.camel@linux> Message-ID: <77be04730612061704g4ab482c9p38fce985afd269b7@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, Al Castanoli wrote: > On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 15:16 -0600, Justizin wrote: > > [...] > > > Whatcha got? Can I switch back yet? ;) > > > > http://jryan.gerf.org/translucence.png > > A mouse is a device for selecting xterms scattered about the desktop, so > as to get real work done from the command line. About all a GUI is good > for other than that is to waste time. > Funny thing is, I get most of my real work done in text editors and web browsers. Why use more than one terminal window when there is screen and a clipboard? And, hell, a terminal is still a GUI, type is a pretty complex aspect of computer graphics, far more complex than layout by leaps and bounds, in fact, though I guess kerning isn't much of a concern in a terminal. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From justizin at siggraph.org Wed Dec 6 19:48:10 2006 From: justizin at siggraph.org (Justizin) Date: Wed Dec 6 19:48:21 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] How to build source packages in Debian In-Reply-To: <20061206232011.GA5895@spoonix.com> References: <20061206210816.GA28880@subspacefield.org> <20061206232011.GA5895@spoonix.com> Message-ID: <77be04730612061748i6a86b109nc8f738f6eb562d9a@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, K. Spoon wrote: > On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 03:08:16PM -0600, Travis H. wrote: > > Hey all, quick question: > > > > What is the method for getting and building source packages in Debian? > > > > Especially kernel. I got it but it I don't know exactly how to build. > > The kernel is a special case... check out see make-kpkg and > http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/system/kernel-pkg.html > > Otherwise, debs don't really have a "source package". They use a patch > to the pristine source tree that adds in a debian/ directory which > contains all the packaging info and build rules. If you're trying to > build something that already has this, you should be able to simply use > dh_builddeb Although there is, strictly speaking, no source package, you can get the package source by running: apt-get source packagename > If you need to create the debian/ control directory from scratch, see > chapters 4-6 at http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ I've always found this labyrinthian, but i've managed to modify a few packages to get them working.. for some reason this is the only package format i've never really been able to grasp, and it hasn't been a long-term seller for dpkg. -- Justizin, Independent Interactivity Architect ACM SIGGRAPH SysMgr, Reporter http://www.siggraph.org/ From hector.bojorquez at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 19:59:54 2006 From: hector.bojorquez at gmail.com (Hector Bojorquez) Date: Wed Dec 6 19:59:58 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] IO-InfoOnly: PHP Eats Rails for Breakfast In-Reply-To: <457732D5.9090501@gmail.com> References: <20061206000124.GH10063@subspacefield.org> <20061206012932.GB30226@spoonix.com> <45762FC9.5040701@gmail.com> <20061206154836.GA3432@spoonix.com> <45771254.9060900@gmail.com> <77be04730612061247j32a2ba03q835396cfdd791dd2@mail.gmail.com> <45772C8D.5000109@gmail.com> <77be04730612061312i3b15a0e3v3ad0769049c5c3c4@mail.gmail.com> <457732D5.9090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2470980d0612061759h7550d601jc98b746f1e7c0a63@mail.gmail.com> ok.. .02 I've been dealing with Sharepoint's Webparts... and it's MSSQL backend ....and .NET and that whole POS... And TEN times today I wanted to yell.. "SCRAP THIS AND LET'S BUILD FROM SCRATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN GET THIS DONE WITH TABLES THAT MAKE SENSE... WITH NORMALIZED DATA....WITH CODE THAT IS MAINTAINABLE...WITH PHP, RUBY... WHATEVER...ANYTHING BUT THIS NON-SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" So.. preferences (and religious affiliations aside)..... php, ruby, python, is going to be ten thousand times better.. I recently installed ROR to test it out...and I was very impressed.. Two lines of code,(scaffolding) and I had CRUD!!!! On 12/6/06, pixelnate wrote: > > Justizin wrote: > > > > One unproductive craftsman with great tools and materials might do > > better than ten great craftsman building hammers out of old furniture. > > As an "unproductive craftsman" I can vouch for that statement. ;^) > -- > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug to unsubscribe > Powered by Rackspace (www.rackspace.com) > From kingttx at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 20:03:40 2006 From: kingttx at hotmail.com (Thomas King) Date: Wed Dec 6 20:03:47 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Webmail header question Message-ID: I am using squirrelmail and RoundCubeMail for webmail clients on my home server. I was looking over a header on a test email I had sent to myself from my home server to see what it comes across as, and I get the following two lines (among others) that I want to correct: Received: (from apache@localhost)by tomslinux.homelinux.org X-Authentication-Warning: tomslinux.homelinux.org: apache set sender to [username]@localhost using -f My hostname is tomslinux.homelinux.org. My apache conf and ssl.conf file both have ServerName tomslinux.homelinux.org:80/443 (respectively). I keep thinking that apache@localhost should come across as apache@tomslinux.homelinux.org. Also, why does apache force the username to be @localhost instead of @tomslinux.homelinux.org? Thanks! Tom King _________________________________________________________________ View Athlete’s Collections with Live Search http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01 From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 20:23:36 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 20:23:38 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] [Fwd: San Antonio Open Source Research] In-Reply-To: <77be04730612061250r7168bca8l6bb7eb9c1c6a7845@mail.gmail.com> References: <45631C11.8010805@gmail.com> <77be04730611210749x74b51459v415602866c5600aa@mail.gmail.com> <77be04730611290655s27958e8fva43ed966874494e1@mail.gmail.com> <345e55a50611291053j4ec3061cmc50db84ad4ae0c0@mail.gmail.com> <20061206105042.GC6342@subspacefield.org> <4576A512.6030903@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <77be04730612061250r7168bca8l6bb7eb9c1c6a7845@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061207022336.GD18609@subspacefield.org> On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 02:50:43PM -0600, Justizin wrote: > On 12/6/06, Geoff wrote: > >Not as cool as D-17 - Non-destructiveTesting. Nah, sounds boring. > I once employed a "Penetration Tester" who wrote security courses for > TurboLinux. > > Beat that. ;) That's a really common job title (at least to me, since I used to work in network security), it doesn't sound risque to me at all. My friend who works at symantec is a "Penetration Engineer", which is really a minor variant but unusual enough that it sounds like something else to me. He better install a trojan if he enters a backdoor so he doesn't get a virus on his floppy from RAMing the mainframe, or something. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 20:26:44 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 20:26:45 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Upgrade Fedora core 3 to core 6 In-Reply-To: <4576A5FA.4080101@w5omr.shacknet.nu> References: <200612020448.11107.luis@luisgarza.com> <20061202171356.E3290DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> <2d1185c80612020942n717622f2r621bf1e0a3e169a9@mail.gmail.com> <4571C07A.6070007@cox-internet.com> <20061206065535.GC6768@subspacefield.org> <4576A5FA.4080101@w5omr.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: <20061207022644.GE18609@subspacefield.org> On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 05:14:02AM -0600, Geoff wrote: > Even in Use(less)net, people still complain about those who top-post, > and don't trim excessive quoting. Ack. Perhaps we ought to have a filter that rejects any email that's more than, say, 80% quoted text or something. It could also change top-posting emails to chronological order. I bet I could do it in a 20 line Perl script.... Does the excessive redundancy bother anyone else here bothered by excessive redundancy? -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 20:31:22 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 20:31:24 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] Webmail header question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061207023122.GA6673@subspacefield.org> On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 08:03:40PM -0600, Thomas King wrote: > Received: (from apache@localhost)by tomslinux.homelinux.org > X-Authentication-Warning: tomslinux.homelinux.org: apache set sender to > [username]@localhost using -f > I keep thinking that apache@localhost should come across as > apache@tomslinux.homelinux.org. Also, why does apache force the username to > be @localhost instead of @tomslinux.homelinux.org? I assume this is using the PHP mail function? I think what's happening is PHP is calling sendmail -f with a username but not a domain name, and so it assumes localhost. If it doesn't set the username using -f, it says it is from anonymous@localhost, so it looks like it is doing that much right. You should be able to rewrite it in your MTA configuration, but I've never heard of RoundCubeMail. You should also be able to filter out that X-Authentication-Warning. I don't know if you'll be able to suppress it without filtering, but perhaps it's a security setting in your MTA. -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 20:56:24 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 20:56:26 2006 Subject: COBOL, was Re: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4575FB6C.5060702@fusemeister.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@satx.rr.com> <4574C95F.4020209@fusemeister.com> <4574D114.8010305@satx.rr.com> <4574D45A.8090705@w5omr.shacknet.nu> <4574DA70.6040801@fusemeister.com> <368c881c0612041919v5c8b5541m52b0eae822d8ef08@mail.gmail.com> <4575FB6C.5060702@fusemeister.com> Message-ID: <20061207025624.GB27163@subspacefield.org> On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 05:06:20PM -0600, Brinkley Harrell wrote: > COBOL (ah, memories) is not hard to learn... > > Alternative expansions of the COBOL acronym have been suggested: I'd like to add one: Common Outdated Business-Oriented Laymen -- "Cryptography is nothing more than a mathematical framework for discussing various paranoid delusions." -- Don Alvarez -><- From travis at subspacefield.org Wed Dec 6 21:05:58 2006 From: travis at subspacefield.org (Travis H.) Date: Wed Dec 6 21:05:59 2006 Subject: [SATLUG] home computer In-Reply-To: <4575FC7C.4050309@fusemeister.com> References: <45734A85.1020900@cis.sac.accd.edu> <45739C72.3050802@sat